Bwana Bob said, “If a kid wears those pullups there is no “consequence” for going in his pants. Someone’s earlier post brought up that fact.”
And exactly what is the consequence? Leaving him in shitty pants? You’re punishing everyone around the kid at that point.
If a kid looks you in the eye and says he’s taking a dump in his pants, I think there might be a psychological problem that should be addressed. I’d at least look into it.
My daughter tells me that she wants to nurse, she has pulled my shirt up on occasion, and although she can’t work the velcro on my bra, she sometimes is able to hold my breast where she wants it. Would you say she is too old to nurse? What harm is done if a child nurses until it is two or even three? Why do you feel those things indicate that it is high time to wean?
I shouldn’t indulge in sarcasm, but the ignorance and judgmentalism in this thread has me feeling like grumpy ol’ Mr Gronkle.
So…
No lee, set aside everything the American Academy of Pediatricians tells us, everything we know about nutrition and health and the benefits of extended breastfeeding. Because by gum, the opinion of the person pushing the grocery cart down the aisle ahead of you knows what is best for you and your family and your child.
Not that she wants to start that debate again–just take it at her word; don’t argue; don’t bother presenting facts that might help us all to better understand other people’s parenting choices.
Speaking of which, do you want to call the World Health Organization, or shall I? Someone has to let them know that yet one more person has endorsed the all-important criterion of “if they can ask, they shouldn’t breastfeed.” I’ll bet this one will tip the balance. WHO will need to get started right away changing their recommendations.
Darn, the sarcasm is showing up? I rewrote my whole post to cut back to a bare minimum of sarcasm. Poop. I guess I’ll just have to live with discussing the principles here…
daveswifejen… did you intend to assert that 1) all people should do as you do and those who do not are not ‘real’ parents (‘who is raising whom’), and 2) scientific evidence, specialized medical groups (such as the AAP, the AAFP, and WHO), and current understanding of child development should be ignored (or certainly not examined closely) when parenting decisions are to be made?
That’s what it sounds like you said.
It also sounds like you believe that making assumptions about the age, medical history, personal history, and other relevant concerns of other people is entirely appropriate behavior. And you are also apparently asserting that because something makes you uncomfortable, it is necessarily wrong. It just is. Bad. Shouldn’t do it. Obviously. Duh. ( :smack: Silly me for deciding what is right for me without consulting you.) I’m not even sure which logical fallacy that is, but it has to be covered in one of them…
Great that your methods worked for your kids. Lovely. Now you know all you need to know about - um, your kids. And I hope that they don’t grow up to believe different things than you do about all this, because it doesn’t sound like it will go very well. And typically, the grandparents don’t win those arguments.
Oh, and I don’t think there is a ‘home’ for holier-than-thou parents. Shucky-darn. (oops, some sarcasm slipped through…)
Most ‘you must’ or ‘always’ responses to potty training are going to get whacked with the same concerns - 1) assumptions will get you in trouble, 2) rely on some science to back up your assertions, 3) not everyone has to do things the same way you did and that’s okay (presuming there is a solid foundation for your alternate), 4) arbitrary limits don’t take developmental processes or individuality into account, and 5) you don’t know everything about the other person’s history and situation (okay, same as 1, assumptions will get you in trouble).
Take some time to do your research, folks. This is the Straight Dope, isn’t it? Anecdotal evidence is entertaining, but you’d best have something to back it up with.
oh, and dangerosa, Gabe doesn’t fall under the spirited child heading most of the time. Mostly he falls under ‘wow, does he have a strong sense of self’ (but still fairly easy to manage, not terribly demanding most of the time except in his anxiety areas and even those aren’t bad - pretty easy, definite pleaser type, very cautious, asks permission a lot, etc.).
Re: training in other countries by age 1:
I have heard that Scandinavians do this too, but I don’t know if it’s still true. Any info on that? I have also read in Dr. Spock that overall, populations that potty-train early tend to have a larger percentage of older kids that wet the bed. I do not know how reliable that is, and would appreciate any further enlightenment.
Ever dealt with special needs children? I’ve known quite a few who weren’t potty-trained by age six (some never train at all). It’s not always obvious on a quick examination if a child is special needs, either; they don’t come with stickers. There’s a lot of variation even between normal children, too. I’ve also read that boys train later on average than girls. It would be interesting to see if there are genetic tendencies involved here.
In any case, branding parents as “lazy” simply because one of their children is a late potty-trainer is absurd. While it’s possible that this is the case, it’s equally possible that there are legitimate issues that could cause “delayed” training, for which such a nasty description is simply cruel.
I had a very hard time potty training as a child; the process left me with a neurosis (a phobia) that I still haven’t fully defeated. My parents have never said much about this, but my mother has said a few things that suggest that they started on me too soon. (It’s also possible that this is connected to my gender dysphoria; my memories from that age are too spotty to tell and my parents have never said anything that sheds any indepedent light.)
I think disposable diapers make potty-training harder: the child doesn’t feel as wet when they pee because the diaper wicks the moisture away from the skin. I’ve seen people claim (although I don’t know the basis for the claim) that using disposables will extend the expected time to potty-train by a six months or more.
http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/512577.html
In light of that study, why would a parent start toilet training before age two? It doesn’t seem to make a diffference.
Well, not to jump to the other side of the fence on this, but statistical evidence is great - except when you are trying to extrapolate to an individual. In other words SOME children might be ready at 15 months to potty train and take a week.
not to start that debate, but sorry if the child is able to tell you he wants your boob and can lift your shirt pull it outta the bra and start feeding …its time to stop breast feeding
I agree. There’s something about a kid walking up to his/her mom to nurse that creeps me out: it’s not like we’re in some 3rd world country and breastmilk is one of the few sources of nutrition available to us. Every woman I’ve known (personally) that nursed for a long time were doing it more for themselves than the kid, IMHO. Bragging rights and stuff (plus they had a screw loose anyway). I’m aware that this is anecdotal and I’m sure there are normal nursing moms out there, blah blah blah. Chill out.
And ditto on the 5 year olds with pacifiers. If you throw the damn thing away, that’s the end of it. Why parents won’t do this is beyond me.
My youngest was in daycare full time and potty trained by age 2 1/2. They had us all bring pull ups and they scheduled regular potty breaks for the kids–every two hours if I remember correctly. If the kid had an accident they cleaned them up with out any fuss and kept them on the same schedule with the other little ones. It worked out great! As soon as they ‘graduated’ from pull ups they got to bring in regular under things (with a spare of course–they are still going to have the occasional accident!). The kids were usually all potty trained between 2-3 yrs old… they couldn’t move up into the “big kid’s” (4 yr old) room unless they were out of pull ups & that was a pretty big deal for them.
I don’t know what you would do if you didn’t agree with the daycare’s program-I would talk to the director first and then stay on them until they implement a program that works for the majority. You have to be involved and stay involved to make any change work in that type of environment. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that.
SnoopyFan, have you ever considered that they might have tried that approach and found it caused more problems than it solved?
BTW, I have no problem with you being creeped out by extended nursing. Heck, I was, too. Seriously. I had two close friends who did it, and I just couldn’t get my brain around the idea. Very much an ‘ewww’ on the personal level, but I also knew the developmental facts and said, hey, if they want to, fine, but I am not going there. Ugh. Until I ended up doing it, and not because I was all thrilled by the prospect - I thought it was mighty weird, remember? So I do understand the perspective. But I don’t agree with saying that a parent is necessarily being a lazy or poor parent just because something they does creeps me out. I need a lot more evidence than just my discomfort level. And I’m willing to put aside my discomfort and not judge simply from discomfort, but instead cut them some slack and say ‘it must be working for them or they wouldn’t bother’. Far less angst on my part when I did that, too. I mean, why should I be all up in arms over someone else’s parenting decision, as long as it fits our current understanding of development? I don’t go all disgusted by moms who use formula, either - they have their reasons, too. I start by assuming they are functional, rational, appropriate to their situation reasons. Much less pain in the world when I do so.
So, as for why parents won’t just throw it away, re: the pacifier? Most do, or didn’t need to, which is exactly why it is unusual to see kids with them at that age. So the vast majority of parents have already done what you suggest. How great for you! Many parents have situations that fit exactly with what you’d propose.
Which leaves the few remaining ones for whom that is not an appropriate choice, or who tried it and ended up with a bigger problem than the pacifier, so reverted, and so forth. In other words, they have their reasons. Do you really need to know each individual one? How about assuming that the parents had a good reason. I’m sure they know they get nasty looks from people. Why would they put up with that if they didn’t have a pretty solid reason?
Some may indeed be lazy, some are probably nearly pathologically trying to avoid upsetting their child, and some have very sound, logical, situation-appropriate, developmentally appropriate reasons to do other than what you would prefer. Typically, parents do things that are functional at the time. They may or may not regret it later, but they respond to the situation as it arises. WRT my older son nursing past a year (and he was walking quite well at 10 months, so weaning then would have been below the minimum age recommended by any pediatric association - again, walking as a marker is arbitrary), I did try to wean him at a year. It resulted in misery all around. Because of his high anxiety level, without that comfort mechanism (and probably some chemical impacts from the breastmilk itself), his anxiety went through the roof. He barely let go of me after I dropped just one session. And when I relented, he went back to his easy-going, independant, curious, exploratory self. Hmm. Reasons to wean? ‘I think it is weird to keep nursing.’ Reasons to keep nursing? ‘Sanity all around.’ You already know which one won. Most people hadn’t a clue that I was nursing a toddler, not that I hid it, but toddlers just don’t usually nurse that often. And most people don’t ask. You probably know a lot of those normal nursing moms, but don’t realize it.
I do know a few women with screws loose who happened to nurse past a year. I also know a few who are holier-than-thou about everything including their nursing duration. But frankly, both of those are entirely independant of the duration of breastfeeding. I know plenty of women with screws loose who never breastfed, or weaned before a year, and vast numbers who are holier-than-thou who didn’t extended nurse. Even correlation on that point is pretty shaky, you won’t have me buying causality.
This is, of course, all beside the point. The point being that you are entitled to be bothered by other people’s parenting choices. But when you start making assumptions about the value and quality of their parenting from your off-the-cuff evaluation of one or two variables, all of which are actually within developmental norms (and are also within the current pediatric advice), you are way more out of line than they are.
Perhaps the chilling should be done by you, as well?
(sorry if I am coming off cranky, but my son is weaning, and engorgement makes me grouchy)
and pardon the grammar (something they does… oy.)
I worked in a Montessori toddler class where the youngest was about 15 months and the oldest around 2 1/2. Our method of potty training was labor intensive, but simple and stress-free for the children, even if sometimes messy for the adults.
Basically, parents provided MANY sets of extra-thick cotton undies, and the children wore these during the day, instead of diapers (even the brand-new 15 month old). (They’d usually go without pants inside - just a shirt, thick undies, and non-slip socks.)
We “toileted” the children frequently during the day - it was part of our routine, so it was never a huge deal - if they didn’t have to go, they’d at least get a chance to sit on the pot for a couple of minutes, maybe check out the flusher and whatnot. If they weren’t into it, we would encourage them to try it, but never push them to it. [We were lucky enough to have a toddler-sized toilet, by the way; in the normal situation, where there is only an adult-sized toilet, we’d have broad steps and an insert that fits inside the seat so that they wouldn’t have to climb up to a terrifyingly high distance and then balance precariously over a huge pool of water, naked…think of how scary that must be!]
The idea was to get them to think that sitting on the toilet was normal, as well as for them to ‘get in touch’ with their bodily functions. Urinating or defecating in cotton undies is much more uncomfortable than it is in diapers, and it cannot be ignored! Of course, it is the adult’s responsibility to help the child change out of soiled clothing immediately. This way the child recognizes that it’s uncomfortable to have urine or feces next to the skin; that there is a place for both of those to go [because we tell them when they sit on the toilet!], and that the whole thing is not a big deal.
We also have no rewards or punishments attached to this: otherwise it can become an ordeal based around power plays between adult and child, rather than a normal part of the daily routine. Sometimes children love it and get it right away, sometimes they don’t. If they see stress or anger about this issue coming from the adult, it’s going to affect how they feel about the process. We felt it was really important not to make it “good” to go in the toilet and “bad” to go in diapers - that just opens a whole new can of worms.
Another friend had a 2.5 year old come into her classroom still in diapers. The child and her mother were under a lot of stress about this issue; the mother was issuing threats and promising parties for dry diapers! My friend used this technique and after 2 weeks, the child was potty trained and happy. (So was my friend!)
Would this work for every child? I think so, but not necessarily in two weeks, of course. (We still had children in diapers/pull-ups for naptime.) I know toddlers who got it within a couple of days, but I also know that it can take months. Everyone has their own time schedule. Even doing it a different way, taking the pressure off of the child is essential. It’s interesting how much emotion becomes attached to this topic. Anyway, I have always been impressed by this way of doing it; it seems to take so much pressure off of both the child and the adult.
(As for laziness: I think it’s MUCH harder work to clean up a four-year-old’s poopy diaper than it is to help a 2 year old sit on the toilet every half and hour!) 
um, that’s “half an hour”
And I realized that when I said “every” child, I am not taking into account children with special needs, because I haven’t worked with any so far. I don’t have direct experience with a physically handicapped or very emotionally troubled child, and I’m sure that would be different. It may not be, though; I just don’t have that knowledge. This has worked for children within the so-called “normal” range, which varies a lot, of course.
But I don’t agree with saying that a parent is necessarily being a lazy or poor parent just because something they does creeps me out.
I never meant to suggest that extended nursers are bad parents or lazy, no way, and IIRC, I haven’t accused anyone of being a bad parent/lazy in this thread. All I was saying is that extended nursing, to me, is weird, and that parents with 5 year olds still sucking pacifiers need to suck it up and throw it away.
But when you start making assumptions about the value and quality of their parenting from your off-the-cuff evaluation of one or two variables, all of which are actually within developmental norms (and are also within the current pediatric advice), you are way more out of line than they are.
See above. All I did was agree with what daveswife said.
pippi,
Tried that with my daughter when she was about 3 1/2. We gave up after a month (those things will leak messy poop). There is only so many times you can clean poop off a couch before your husband threatens to divorce you.
BTW, my daughter did have really messy unformed bowel movements, coupled with occational constipation (she seems to have inheireted my lower GI), which the peditrician thought probably contributed to the late potty traiing. (But she was stubborn as a mule and it was a power thing as well).
Sorry, SnoopyFan, I didn’t make myself clear. I don’t think YOU were saying that parents were lazy. (But you did imply that there was a link between extended nursing and having a screw loose, despite the ‘sure there are others who aren’t’, because it implies that is an exception).
I was actually trying to say “I hear you on the weird thing, really, just be careful not to equate the two so closely”. Ah brevity, most useful. My bad.
And then I was going on from there to say that when people (‘you’ should have been ‘one’) label things that are different than they think they should be as lazy, etc., they are making judgements without data, which isn’t exactly genius thinking. There, if you were agreeing on that point with daveswifejen, well, she pretty directly implied that people aren’t real parents if they don’t do things her way. If you agree, then back you go into the tar pit. But you didn’t so much sound like you agreed with the labels, as the discomfort. And that, I agree, is your business.
And then I got back to you (specific) combined with you (generic) - the ‘cut them some slack’. There’s usually more going on than you are aware of, behind the scenes, for anything that is outside norm. Why judge? Chances are you’ll be missing critical information anyway. And you’d really suggest that a developmentally delayed 5-year-old should have their pacifier thrown away? Really? (as noted, they don’t have stickers on their foreheads…)
So, forgive the mishmash - I really didn’t think you were doing more than agreeing with the discomfort, and asking a genuine question about what the parents of 5-year-olds-with-pacifiers were thinking. I got rolling from there.
Dangerosa,
Good point about the messy poop thing - we would suspend use of undies if a child had diarrhea (of course, being a school, we’d probably ask the parents to keep the child at home if she were really ill). Kind of have to balance the potty training with good hygiene, right. Most of the time, you can catch them right after they poop, but if they’re sick or have GI problems, it will be all over the place before you know it. (And sometimes, it is regardless of what you do!)
The other thing is that we began this process with much younger, smaller children, so that the, ahem, amount of cleanup would be that much less. I think that may be a key point.
lesson learned… my opinion was all it was meant to be, first time here and the topic did spark my interest. Maybe I didn’t word things properly, maybe my opinions were not needed, and I will apologize for any anger or irritation I caused anyone by stating my opinions. I guess I have a way of believeing because it DID work for me, and perhaps I am narrow minded in the “pacifier” issue, no there are no stickers on thier forheads stating there could be a reason, emotional, physical, or anyother reason…my statement was based on the walking talking fully functioning children who are still sucking…do I care that the parents are lazy, nope, do I care they may be working 3 jobs to support that kid and would rather it suck a binky than see the poor kid cry.nope. It matters none to me either way because in the confines of my own home I have it the way I want. Do I have an opinion, yes, does what someone else does with thier child affect me…no, its an opinion, thats all i was giving was MY opinion, not a guideline to child rearing…if it came across as though it was my way or you all suck, then again I do apologize.