How is any of that society’s fault?
I’ve seen stats about economic mobility in Europe being better than America for a while. I have never really dug into them, but I wonder if some of that is due to just how high the upper range of American incomes go. I would guess that the top 10% of Americans make significantly more than the top 10% of Danes.
Is comparing income quintiles between America and Denmark really fair when America’s quintiles look like this (cite - Mean Income Received by Each Fifth):
$370K
$217K
$103K
$67K
$41K
$16K
I don’t have mean income quintile numbers for Denmark, but it does have the lowest spread of any OECD state (cite). These are made up numbers, but for example, if Denmark’s mean income quintiles looked like this:
$40K
$30K
$25K
$20K
$10K
is it really all that remarkable to note that someone might go from making $10K to $40K much more easily (and thus more frequently) than someone might go from $16K to $370K?
This sounds rather pulled-out-of-the-ass. A cite would be nice. It certainly fits into the nice narrative the middle class believes about how hard-working they are, but it doesn’t jibe with the reality I have personally experienced.
Every summer, my office is filled with young, eager interns–the majority of whom are related to my coworkers. And this is government, where nepotism is supposedly frowned upon.
Poor people know other poor people. That. Is. The. Freakin’. Point. By definition, poor people don’t have any power. They don’t have “good” jobs and thus cannot help another person acquire one. If you are a poor person and you’d like to get a job doing something besides menial labor, you are going to have to show someone who is well-connected that they are “quality”. Poor people lack the cultural capital to do this. They can’t play the “I played lacrosse with your son” card. They don’t know the people who can provide an introduction at a cocktail party. Their speech patterns and mannerisms mark them as “outsiders”. They even struggle with small talk that lubricates interactions with the well-connected, because they are unfamiliar with the subjects that middle-class talks about.
You don’t even have to be middle-class to find this challenging. During my first year or so of grad school, I found it challenging to engage my fellow grad students–who were overwhelming white and male. And I had just finished a 4-year program with almost nothing but white males, mind you. But I was still an “outsider”. I couldn’t trade frat stories. I didn’t share their interests and hobbies (like drinking beer). I eventually learned how to play the game, but it wasn’t easy at all–despite coming from a middle-class background.
Ha! This is hilarious, really. You can’t control the people who come into your life. I’ve had all kinds of people pop into my life who’ve helped me enormously, and all I did was say “yes” to the opportunity they offered me. Sure, I was agreeble and charming, but it was simple luck that brought them into my life. And it was luck that these people looked at me and saw “middle class and respectable” rather than “poor and ghetto”. I didn’t choose to born into a middle class family, with all the trappings and blessings that come with that.
Cite? I’m guessing everyone who has ever told an undergraduate to look for an internship would disagree very much with this.
Strawman. First of all I didn’t talk at all about denying the kids anything. When we were dead-broke our son still had food and went on school trips and still went on camping trips with Boy Scouts. However we did NOT go to movies, eat out, take trips, etc. As for the denial part, most people I know in this position know full well they are broke. Hell they say it to everyone when they are begging money.
For your first example, I don’t think anyone is begrudging a low-cost one-time event. It is the continual waste of money being discussed.
For your second point. BWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Borrow? We would never see that money again. Because she helped us in the past? She never did anything but leach off of us. The $30 was not for rent or food. It was so she could throw a birthday party at an amusement park for her daughter (do you know how expensive those are?) because she wanted to impress the parents of her daughter’s friends.
That is insulting. They spend money on frivolous things because they can’t figure out they need to pay for food and rent?
Assumption is they can control their spending. I don’t think we are such monsters that we say “Hey they have a mental illness. Fuck 'em”
Again with the strawman. You are talking about one-shot purchases wherein the person is trying to improve their life or are you actually equating buying something (clothes, haircut, coffee) to improve your financial condition with $60-$80 in movie expenses every month?
Again the strawman. I said we are not discussing the people living with minimal survival because that’s all they can afford. The group we are discussing are not frugal. They are spending money they cannot afford on unimportant-to-survival stuff.
Friends and family drop off because they are tired of the “I took Chris out to Chez Chique last Friday and bought a new dog. Oh and I am sooooo broke, I don’t think the food bank food will last until the end of the month. <starts to pout looking for a handout.>”
And I know you won’t believe me, I do understand the rationalizations. Yes life is so depressing that they go to the movies every week and treat themselves to a ticket, popcorn and coke and it is only $20. Yes but that $20/wk is $1000/yr. For most of the poor people - Hell for most working middle class people - I know, a $1000/yr emergency fund or savings would be absolutely lifechanging. The difference with someone like Blalron is he is not talking to me about chugging his PBR then begging $40 off of me on April 26th for food and gas. It sounds like he is making ends meets and giving himself a treat. He is not in the group of people we are talking about who treat themselves and can’t make ends meet.
I have gotten a few but they were all developed during my professional or at least after college life. Certainly none from mummy and daddums. I totally agree with “It’s not what you know but who you blow.” but people I know develop their own professional connections - not ones handed to them from family.
Yes, sorry I wasn’t clear. I meant the first job after college, not later when one is expected to have developed professional networks.
For the “apologists” in the thread, a personally directed question, just out of curiosity:
If someone spends $200 a week on jewelry, movies, designer clothing, etc., ***repeatedly ***and each time asks you for money for basic essentials (food, rent, etc.)…what would YOU do?
Give money with no conditions?
Give money *with *conditions?
Don’t give money?
When did we jump from a $10 movie ticket to $200/week?
Are we talking about somebody who occasionally splurges on “unnecessary” items or somebody who repeatedly spends half their paycheck on such goods?
I’m fairly certain that nobody is here to bash poor people. I’m certainly not.
It seems to me you are not discussing as much as you are shooting down. Let’s take one example - Birth control. You are under the impression that poor girls cannot afford birth control. I’ve offered up several alternatives:
Medicaid. You said:
*"You are wrong. Medicaid, which varies by state, is NOT required to pay for birth control. Some states do (most, fortunately) but some don’t.
In some states, able-bodied single adults without children do NOT get Medicaid, which makes whether or not Medicaid covers birth control irrelevant.
In some states Medicaid will cover the kids but not the able-bodied adult parents of children, so, again, whether or not birth control is offered would be irrelevant to those who do not qualify."*
Planned Parenthood. You said:
“Sure - if there is a Planned Parenthood office close enough for a visit. There usually is in urban areas, not so much further out in the boondocks or do you assume poverty is only a city problem?”
Abstinence. You said:
“Why should poor people be expected to forgo sex?”
What about making the guy have a condom before fucking him? You said:
*"You really think one of those loser types who pride themselves on viable sperm are going to take “no” for an answer? One of two things is likely to happen: either he dumps the girl and finds one who won’t ask him to wear a rubber, or she gets a fist to the teeth.
Also, women want to fuck just as much as men do. After awhile, a lot of women are going to say screw it and do it bareback just because they’re so damn tired of being horny.
When you’re poor sex is free - and not much else that is fun is free. Not much else that makes you feel good, even for a few minutes, is free. It makes it even harder to say “no”."*
Every single one of your answers is why a poor person CAN’T do something. Can’t get Medicaid, can’t go to Planned Parenthood, can’t NOT have sex, can’t make the guy wear a condom. Nothing positive about anything. How about something that poor people CAN do to help themselves? Oh right, poor people CAN’T help themselves because they are too dumb, poor, and horny to ever think about anything else. I thought THAT was what this thread is about. If you Debbie Downer every idea that anyone ever has to help poor people or give them better choices, what is even the point of talking with you about anything? I guess we should just say "Fuck the poor people, seems like NOTHING will EVER help them EVER!?
For argument’s sake, the bolded latter.
Oddly enough, I lived next door to such a person for awhile.
After I figured out what was going on the my replies to her requests for money went something like this:
“Maybe you shouldn’t have bought that Manx cat”
“Maybe you should have paid your taxes before you bought that $400 dress”
Yep, epic bad decision making. Not $200 a week but she always seemed to make at least one bad financial decision a month, usually for around $400 a shot. She was a hot mess in many ways. I wasn’t going to lie to her and didn’t have a problem saying she was making bad choices. Just because I had a decent idea of how she got to be such a mess doesn’t mean I condoned her actions.
But she wasn’t destitute - she had some money coming in most of the time so she had some ability to make bad decisions without winding up homeless.
So you didn’t give her the money when she asked?
How are these statements different than:
“Maybe you should have used a condom”
“Maybe you should have graduated high school”
“Maybe you shouldn’t go out with a jobless asshole”
That’s what I’m saying also. I know LOTS of people who have leveraged their own personal networks to get jobs - that IS how it’s done, ideally. I even included an example in an post upthread - Roommate #3. He got his first post law school attorney job through his networking connections (i.e. me) and their connections (i.e. my brother, my brother’s friend’s dad, a high-placed attorney for Exxon). But none of that had a damn thing to do with his family’s connections.
My point was that family connections, at least for the vast, vast run of middle-class people, aren’t as useful as people seem to think. Maybe for some upper-middle class children whose parents are in certain management positions, but if your parents are say… a grocery-store manager and a teacher, what super duper network do you have from that?
If the woman lives in a state where Medicaid won’t cover her, or won’t cover her birth control, then proposing Medicaid as an idea or viable solution is as realistic as proposing she solve her financial problems by spending her entire paycheck on lottery tickets. If she lives several hundred miles from the nearest Planned Parenthood clinic, then suggesting it as her solution isn’t helpful either. It’s not being “Debbie Downer” to point out solutions that can’t or won’t actually solve anything for many many people.
Several posters on this thread are trying to point out actual real-life barriers and circumstances that affect how poor people live their lives. Lack of access to birth control is one of those circumstances that affects at least some people. If you choose not to acknowledge these real difficulties, how do you expect to understand the problems faced by the people affected?
For example, Kansas did not expand Medicaid, and does not offer coverage for non-disabled adult females who do not have children. We have two (count 'em, TWO) Planned Parenthood clinics in the entire state. (We also have an administration which has actively promoted marriage as a way out of poverty; single women on welfare are told they need to get out there and find a husband.)
Incorrect.
SOME poor people find a way to afford birth control. SOME do not. Again, you really seem to have a problem digesting my posts, or else you’re determined to set me up as some sort of strawman.
I listed some reasons why a poor person might have trouble obtaining birth control. Most have to do with either access or money. I don’t know why that is puzzling to you.
It is a FACT that not all state Medicaid programs offer birth control. Not all state Medicaid programs cover able-bodied adults. If you don’t believe me you are welcome to do your own independent research on it.
As it happens, in my particular state neither I nor my spouse will ever qualify for Medicaid because we do not have children. Fortunately, my state did start a program that provides coverage for adults in our position and we have been taking advantage of it for the past 8 years. I talk about this to every poor adult I encounter with access problems and encourage them to look into it and apply. That in no way contradicts the notion that where an adult can get Medicaid coverage AND that state Medicaid pays for birth control a poor person can, indeed, obtain low or no cost birth control, it’s just that access is not universal.
And, of course, just because you make birth control accessible does not mean it will be used, or that it will be perfect. Unless you’re advocating physically forcing people to have birth control “installed” you’re going to have to accept that some poor people are going to have babies.
Your problem is thinking in absolutist terms, a distressing lack of empathy, and failure to understand that in the real world people are not logical robots.
There’s a lot that will help poor people, but there is also a subset of poor people who are really, truly messed up for one reason or another who are going to be somewhere between very hard and impossible to get out of poverty. I learned that back when I was a middle-class person working at an inner city clinic because, aside from needing a job, I wanted to do something to help society as a whole. I learned that poverty is a lot different than the stereotypes I was taught growing up. I still advocate helping the poor but I no longer have the illusion there is an easy, one-step answer. There are a lot of different reasons why people become poor and/or stay poor, why would there be one way out of that mess for them?
Again, one thing I like about my state is that they DON’T have a one-size-fits-all approach. A case-worker actually looks the household and tries to track them into a program that will actually address their problems. Some is laid off or their employer goes out of business, but they actually have middle-class habits and lots of work experience? They get tracked to seminars on current job-hunting, resume, and interview techniques and are networked with other, similar people out of a job (while also being helped to navigate the food stamps/medical coverage/etc. system if needed). Someone never finished high school? Get them into a GED program. Someone finished high school/has a GED but needs childcare? Hook them up with a lost cost/subsidized program than track them into job-hunting/resume/interview skills. Disabled but not on disability? Get them a lawyer. Comes from chronic poverty, no one in the family has an honest job? Track them into the IMPACT program where they attend Monday through Friday business hours, emphasizing needed work habits like punctuality and proper dress (including a trip to Goodwill if better clothes are needed) while job hunting so those habits will be in place when they finally get a job.
Once more - find out WHY a person is poor, then address those problems. Is this a temporary or multi-generational thing? Is there an education problem? Undiagnosed mental problems or physical conditions?
Yes, solving poverty is “simple” - get a job that pays a living wage. It’s the details that are a problem, but the details are what you have to work out to find a solution that works.
I think the point of that story is in the final line: “she had some money coming in most of the time so she had some ability to make bad decisions without winding up homeless.” Because she wasn’t in the really destitute category, she could paper over the worst consequences of those bad decisions.
You seem to have some difficulty understanding decision-making processes and what goes into them. For example, did somebody consciously choose and decide not to graduate high school, or were they placed into a situation where they were expected to take care of younger siblings, contribute financially to the family, or given other responsibilities such that school became a low priority? or were they in a situation where the school was unable or unwilling or otherwise failed to deal with learning disabilities, mental illness, or other issues that made graduation seem unlikely or hopeless? Ask WHY somebody didn’t graduate before immediately leaping to conclusions.
But essentially you yourself are describing the use of family connections to get Roommate #3 a job – your brother is family to you, and the dad is family to your brother’s friend, yes? The teacher may well know somebody on the school board who knows somebody; the grocery-store manager may have a brother whose best friend works for XYZ. “Family connections” doesn’t mean that everybody in the chain is biologically related. If you are relying solely on personal networks without familial connections, then Roommate #3 had you, and only you–not your brother, or your brother’s friend, or his dad. Those latter three came through family connections.
Fine. Find one poor, childless non-disabled adult female in Kansas that really needs birth control, but cannot afford any, and cannot get it free at any clinic, and I will gladly send her a box of condoms.
Yes, by speaking in generalities and stereo-typical ways that describe how men and women think. Find a specific poor person who cannot take advantage of ANY the programs set up to help poor people. One person you know who is poor through no fault of their own and has done everything in their power to NOT be poor. Do you know anyone like that? Does anyone?
I know several people, while not poor, aren’t exactly middle class. They don’t take advantage of any college programs here. They don’t go to a trade school. They don’t sue their loser baby daddy’s for child support. There are MANY programs they could enroll in, but just don’t.
Sure, but NOT Roommate #3’s family connections. That was my point- NONE of us got jobs through our own family connections, but rather through networks we all cultivated during college or afterward.
Neither me nor my brother managed to find jobs due to our own family networks, which is what **Monstro **was saying is the usual and accepted way for middle class college students to get jobs after college.
I was replying that it’s NOT the usual way- most people get jobs through their career center or via Monster or something else.
And I say MOST poor people can find a way to afford birth control if they expend a little effort. Maybe this is where our views diverge. I noticed that when all the places to get FREE condoms was mentioned, you changed your poor person excuse to “Well, they just don’t WANT to use them”
Not that I want to debate this here, but what is a “living wage” to you?