Riiight. And the secret prisons are so legal that we had to keep them secret.
Sam Lowry: Excuse me, Dawson, can you put me through to Mr. Helpmann’s office?
Dawson: I’m afraid I can’t sir. You have to go through the proper channels.
Sam Lowry: And you can’t tell me what the proper channels are, because that’s classified information?
Dawson: I’m glad to see the Ministry’s continuing its tradition of recruiting the brightest and best, sir.
Stranger
Yes, Powell is a bit late to the soiree, but I’m glad to see this letter. It needed to be said and there are few people in America today with the impressive mix of both military and diplomatic experience to say it and actually be listened to. This isn’t going to get Powell that fifth star any sooner, though.
Kudos, also, to Sens. Warner, Graham, McCain and Collins for being willing to break ranks with their party and do the right thing, despite being leaned on by the White House.
I suspect Bush will sign whatever emerges from the House-Senate conference committee, but with the Mother of All Signing Statements attached.
Same here. Compared to the more prolific political debaters on this board my knowledge of American politics is woefully tiny, but I have picked up enough to take a liking to Colin Powell.
Brutus has left, so probably no. I’m willing to bet my head that he would have been in here defending the changes and smearing Powell, though.
I’m not sure that there are any Bush supporters on the board; though of course there are people who are painted as such. Generally the most I ever see is people saying that people aren’t looking at any other sides of an issue. That’s a far cry from saying that they are in support of Bush, his side in the issue, or thinking Bush could successfully design anything that would work even if he was on the right side of an issue.
I could share every stance on every issue with Bush and argue in favor of them, and yet still think Bush was an idiot and wish he wasn’t in charge of bringing the solutions into being.
I’ll fill in.
If we do it, it’s not torture, by definition. You’d rather innocent Americans died than a terrorist is made uncomfortable?
Anyhow, they’re all guilty, so we don’t need trials. Have we ever been wrong?
Close enough?
You’ve never read any of Starving Artist’s posts, have you?
:dubious:
Don’t think I have, no.
Here’s a sample. Scroll down to the last paragraph.
I don’t ever recall him offering any criticism of Bush, however muted.
You know? You’re right. There’s no comparison at all between Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective and the Bush administration, which kills innocent women and children to achieve its objectives, none whatsoever. It’s so obvious. How could I have ever believed otherwise? :rolleyes:
Only if you are fighting an enemy that observes the same sentiment.
Saddam did a way better job of keeping the peace in Iraq with much inferior troops than the US ever could. His troops were not at risk at all when maintaining the peace within Iraq.
If the US needs to employ torture to finish these wars, then the American military has failed. I no longer believe that American troops can successfully fight a prolonged ground war. The American people, rightly so, do not have the stomach for what it will take to win.
Its time to pull the troops out of both in Iraq and Afghanistan. For that matter, everywhere else as well. Pax Americana just doesn’t work. Let the rest of the world sort out its problems. That will protect the troops.
Gotta put myself in the “too little, too late” camp. Maybe this is to recover some dignity for the sake of posterity. His assertion is rather obvious, and his sudden public return to rational principles are too shackled to circumstance to afford them much respect, I’m afraid.
Take the long view. Today, we’re fighting disorganized guerilla and terrorist groups. Tomorrow, we may again by fighting the kind of nation that likes to pretend to hold to the rules of war. But they’ll only do that if they believe their own troops will be treated well in retrurn.
Also, stories of torture can only prolong and worsen this conflict. First, there’s direct acts of retribution. There’s outrage leading to new recruits and strengthening teh resolve of the enemy. Finally, the ultimate goal is to get the enemy to throw down arms and surrender. Aren’t they much more likely to do so if they know they won’t be tortured afterwards?
Also, information obtained by torture is notoriously unreliable. So even setting the moral arguments aside, there’s strong arguments against torture.
And that’s the key problem with torture, isn’t it? We aren’t fighting an organized armed force of enlisted men and officers. We are sparse, hidden groups of rogues that are recruited and join groups like al Qaeda out of a deep hatred for percieved wrongs by our country. All the stories of torture are going to do are add another reason for people to sign up for these organizations, and decrease the willingness to cooperate by those sympathetic to their cause.
Plus, we lose ourselves. Why are we all so willing to sacrifice our core values simply as a matter of convenience?
Need I remind everyone that we are in the hands of a “born again” Christian?
While there’s no way to know for sure without a crystal ball, I disagree with your conclusion. My boss is a political consultant with the ears of many high-ranking Democrats in Washington. He sat in his office watching Powell’s speech and bought into it hook, line and sinker, allowing it to ratchet up his fear level right where Bush & Co. wanted it to be. I stood in his office, mouth agape, incredulous that a man as bright as my boss could possibly believe what I could tell, even then, was utter bullshit, and told him so. Nope, I was reminded, “Powell is a credible guy. If he says it’s true, then it’s true.”
Had Powell never made that speech, people like my boss, and other influential people, as well as every-day constituents, would have been more likely to have pushed our Representatives to fight harder against an Iraq invasion. I’m not saying we’d’ve necessarily been successful, but we sure wouldn’t have given Bush the blank check we handed him had it not been for Powell’s influence.
Then he would be a traitor.
Following the procedures set in place to rid our government of corruption can never be a worse alternative to obfuscating and protecting those who corrupt it.
Shayna, thank you for bringing a new perspective to something that previously I’d taken as a given: namely, my respect for Powell. You’ve really made me think.
Perhaps he’s gone into talk radio. I heard a couple of shows really tearing Powell a new one last week.
Had much the same reaction, I was strongly swayed by his presentation, at least so long as it took to get to these boards and watch them fall apart one by one.
Powell has that indefinable quality we might as well call gravitas. Some got, most don’t. For a while, Bush had a counterfeit version, imposed by circumstances and the near desperate wish for people to have a Leader when frightened.
But I don’t know Colin Powell from Adam. There are unanswered questions about his involvement in the My Lai massacre investigation. But over all, I tend to trust him based on that gravitas, even as I admit to myself I probably shouldn’t.
So we are left with his actions to judge: what did he know, and when did he know it? If he were misled and lied to, then he was betrayed, his sense of duty ill-used. I would expect that the man I think he is wouldn’t hesitate to openly condemn those who abused his trust.
Overall, he seems to be somewhat muted in his criticism, seems willing to silently accept the Bushiviks efforts to put the blame on the CIA for erroneous intelligence. Does he know better, or no?
My reaction was much the same as yours. I purposely listened to that speech because I was sick and tired of hearing about “WMDs”, and wanted to see what the real scoop was. I remember like it was yesterday seeing Powell do his slide show: Here’s a building with a truck parked outside. You’ll note that the truck is not there the next day. WTF??? He had lots of accusations, but no hard facts. Frankly, though, I didn’t really care if SH had WMDs or not. Everyone has WMDs of some sort. It’s a meaningless buzzword.