Rebuttal of "The Truth About Torture" by C. Krauthammer

Link to original article, “The Truth About Torture.”

Charles Krauthammer, columnist for The Weekly Standard and rather eloquent for a right wingnut, thinks the McCain legislation against torture is bad and that torture is necessary sometimes.

Here, as succinctly as possible, I will counter his major points.

So far so good. CK then goes on to make his arguments in favor of torture:

CK offers here a subtle weave of correctness and incorrectness. He is right that the case of ordinary soldiers in uniform is unambiguous: CK himself doesn’t point this out, but, according to modern rules of war, in an interrogation military personnel are required only to tell their name, rank, and serial number. End of chat.

CK is wrong, however, in asserting that there is an essential category of combatant called “terrorist”; for terrorism, like a frontal battlefield assault or civilian bombing with nuclear weapons, is a technique of war that can be, and has been, practiced by soldiers in uniform. By the same token, we punish soldiers for war crimes; the uniform doesn’t absolve them of those.

Hence, the essence of the issue is that there are combatants out of uniform committing war crimes (or just plain old crimes) who may or may not belong to a regular army. The insurgents in Iraq are not, by dint of the fact that they don’t wear easily recognizable uniforms, terrorists or even illegitimate combatants. Most of them are not even targeting civilians, but rather are engaging in fairly conventional warfare against our troops. At the same time, there are people targeting only civilians and not under the auspices of any state or substantial political entity.

Ultimately, “terrorist” is a political and propagandistic term that doesn’t reflect the political and martial realities out there. Don’t get me wrong: People who wantonly target civilians are completely despicable. And yes, on a strictly semantic level people who employ terrorism are justifiably called “terrorists.” Blanket-labeling Islamists-We-Don’t-Like “terrorists,” however, only obfuscates their true nature; we hurt our chances of winning this conflict if we believe our own propaganda.

CK’s category of “terrorist with information” is doubly incorrect. First, because he employs the non-category “terrorist.” Second, because there are also “soldiers with information” and even “civilians with information,” and CK has already stated that soldiers (and presumably civilians) shouldn’t be tortured. Let’s come back to this after we look at his ethics case:

[quoteA terrorist has planted a nuclear bomb in New York City. It will go off in one hour. A million people will die. You capture the terrorist. He knows where it is. He’s not talking. […]
Now, on most issues regarding torture, I confess tentativeness and uncertainty. But on this issue, there can be no uncertainty: Not only is it permissible to [torture him]. It is a moral duty.
[/quote]
As I stated above, you could easily make this case about soldiers or civilians:

You are a Japanese general. Hiroshima has just been nuked. You have reason to believe that a second city will be nuked soon. You have downed a plane and captured a US airman who you have reason to believe has knowledge of the second strike. You have a moral duty to torture him to save over a hundred thousand lives.

You are a spy for Japan in deep cover in Nevada. You have got someone in a basement who you have reason to believe is working on a weapon of unbelievable destructiveness. You have a moral duty to torture him to save thousands, perhaps millions of Japanese lives.

If the case is really about saving “millions of lives,” then the moral character or military credentials of the tortured really shouldn’t matter. So the whole “can we torture a terrorist” question is really just a tarp over the essential question: Can we Americans torture someone, anyone, if we have just cause?

I agree, and I think most people would agree, that torture would be permitted to prevent the maximum evil imaginable. Actually, there are many hypothetical cases that put one in such a moral pickle. Could you kill one innocent baby if you knew that you could extract a serum from its blood that could prevent bird flu from wiping out humanity? And so on.

The problems with CK’s particular case, however, are mundane but multiple. First, the case states that you have captured the bomb-planter himself and you know it’s him (“you captured the terrorist”). That’s unrealistic to the point of stupidity. How would you have only thus much information yet have it be credible? Because you’re not going to torture the guy unless you’re sure, but how can you be sure and not simultaneously know where the bomb is? Or, how can you be sure at this point in time, all of a sudden, and not have had any information up to this point?

I suppose that a plausible though absurdly unlikely scenario is this: A lesser member of an al Qaeda cell rats out the bomb-planter. The first guy would have just enough knowledge to implicate the second credibly without knowing himself where the bomb was. You torture the second guy to get the real info (actually, shouldn’t you torture both just to be safe?).

Realistically speaking, the next time something truly awful happens to us, we will be blindsided as we were on 9/11. For all practical purposes, therefore, the question of whether torture could prevent such an event is moot.

But the real problem with the example is that torture is extremely unlikely to be effective. First, the bomb-planter is presumably a suicide unconcerned about, most likely relishing, the fact that he is right on top of ground zero. Second, the torturers themselves might be in mortal danger if they have to work on the guy right after they get him (the clock is ticking, after all); how are they going to do their jobs? But third and most important, this guy is going for Ultimate Terrorist Status, and he only has to last for a few hours of torture–how can he not succeed? He can squirm, he can writhe, he can lie his ass off–then kaboom and martyrdom.

In short, CK has provided the very scenario in which the evildoer is most likely to withstand torture: He is maximally motivated but time is extremely limited. That is not how torture has been used by the US in real life: People like Sheikh Mohammed have been captured and waterboarded without a clock ticking. Have lives been saved? Who knows. But one might also be able to save a few lives by torturing a Saudi prince or a Syrian general. Should we go for it?

In any case, the whole psychological purpose of the example is quite clear: It’s a foot in the door. We concede that torture would be “worth it” to save millions, and then the question later becomes whether it would be worth it to save thousands or only a few. CK states this clearly:

Here is where I can state my own moral principles with confidence. Torture is in itself such a great evil that, though I concede that its use might be permitted (though not plausibly useful) in preventing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions, it certainly is not permitted to prevent a few hundred or thousands deaths. Torture to prevent 9/11? Uh uh.

Here CK’s logic is truly flawed:

Sorry, CK, I won’t grant you the foot in the door. The situation you gave was speciously plausible and a perfect example of a case in which torture wouldn’t be effective.

The right and practical thing to do is to make a blanket ban on torture, since there will almost never be a case in which it is permitted. And we certainly don’t want military personnel and CIA agents playing it by ear out in the field. Should the improbable case ever come to pass, then the president or whoever is going to do what he has to do anyway and accept the personal consequences.

But CK is soon eagerly traveling down the slippery slope on a Flexible Flyer, sans any self-consciousness whatever:

You hold him, interrogate him reasonably, try him, and then lock him up. The fact that he is a “terrorist” really changes nothing. Again, we could kidnap high-ranking Syrian generals and civilian officials and probably get all kinds of life-saving info out of them with torture. Should we do so?

CK’s essay becomes much more disjointed and less clear after the above, but we eventually learn that one may torture “terrorists” if it will save a single life:

They tortured to save just one guy, who got killed anyway. Great example, Charles!

Krauthammer’s Position in Short
There is a kind of person called “terrorist” who deserves no protection under the rules of war. Since “terrorists” deserve no protection, they may be tortured should the moral calculus call for it.

Concerning that moral calculus, torture is evil but permissible in at least one case (nuke), so the question is where we draw the line. Actually, one should draw the line at saving a single human life. Further, it is permissible to torture, on a generic basis, “terrorists” who have a lot of useful information.

My Position in Short
Terrorism is an evil technique, and those who use it should be punished whether they are in a regular army or not. Whether one uses that technique, however, does not alter the moral calculus of using torture to acquire life-saving information.

As an exercise in casuistry, yes, torture would be permissible to prevent an apocalyptic event, but realistically speaking it is next to impossible that it could be useful in such a case. Torture should not be permitted as a generic means to gain intel from “bad guys” or to save a single life or even quite a large number of lives.

The reasons why it should not be so permitted are several:

  1. Torture is an absolute evil; it is always evil, even if one is using it to achieve a good end.
  2. If you use torture in a generic fashion, you will end up torturing innocent people, thereby compounding the evil.
  3. Although it may be effective against certain people in certain circumstances, in general the information it produces is not of high quality and of disproportionate worth to the evil used to gain it.
  4. It is a PR goldmine for the enemy.
  5. No one can practice torture in the short term without a high chance of psychological damage. On the other hand, no one can practice torture on a regular basis who himself is not evil. Do you want CIA torturers free in US society?
  6. If we torture them, they will torture us.

In conclusion, Charles Krauthammer’s arguments in favor of torture do not hold water, and by the end of the article he, sadly, is revealed to believe its use is justified on a widespread basis. He seems to fall into the common trap of thinking, “We’re the good guys, so we gotta do what we gotta do, and somehow it will all work out.”

It won’t. It hasn’t. We’re the bad guys now.

Krauthammer conveniently ignore the fact that the moment you say “we gotta do whatever it takes,” you stop being the good guys.

But then, asking what is Charles Krauthammer’s credibility starts with a flawed assumption.

I’m confused. Seems like you’re just arguing about where the trip point is. You “concede that its use might be permitted” to pervent hundreds of thousands of deaths, but not just “thousands”. How do you know in advance how many people will die? If you concede the point, then you agree with CK. After all, he clearly states that the real issue is not whether or not there should be an exception, but what the exact nature of that exception is.

rjung: Can you think of no other argument than an ad hominem?

That’s only true assuming a perfect world is possible or even feasible to attempt. Murder in self defense, for instance, is written off as not-guilty because when it comes to the imminent loss of ones own life, “gotta do whatever it takes” is generally viewed as perfectly moral.

I’d like to join the debate, but I mostly agree with the OP. So there’s not much point.

  1. If we torture, the terrorists will have won!

An argument I’ve heard from both sides of the current political divide seems to be gaining ground, and has a lot to do with our self-perception as “the good guys.” In short, it isn’t that we shouldn’t torture because it doesn’t work (even though it usually doesn’t), or that it will help keep our soldiers safe (not true in Iraq today, and wasn’t true in Vietnam or WWII in the Pacific). The primary reason we shouldn’t torture is because of what it will do to us; it is not who we say we are, who we think we are, and what even now most of the world seems to think we are, giving the continued immigration into the country. If we explicitly make torture legal in ANY circumstance, then we have put ourselves in the illustrious company of despotic regimes such as the U.S.S.R. or Saddam’s Iraq.

Can you construct a hypothetical, such as the ticking nuke in NYC, where torture seems to be the lesser of the available evils? Sure, just like the “kill this one baby to wipe out cancer” scenario, but as Aeschines pointed out, in reality the two situations are just about as likely to happen.

But say it does. An FBI agent in NYC busts a suspected terrorist cell, documents are found, and one of the two captured terrorists decides that they really aren’t quite ready to die, and screams out “He drove the truck and set the timer, and we’re all going to die in 15 minutes if you don’t stop it!”

Regardless of what the law says, I expect that the FBI agent, and any other LEOs present, would encourage the fingered terrorist to reveal the location of the bomb ASAP, using any means necessary. Cut to standard last minute cutting of the red, NO, GREEN, wire, city is saved, life is good. Afterwards, the cops are brought to trial for abusing the prisoner. Does anybody think that any jury in the five boroughs is going to convict them, except of possibly the lesser included charge of “illegal discharge of a firearm”?

The McCain amendment should pass, and if vetoed said veto should be overridden. If any agent of the government ever feels that they must torture in order to prevent catastrophe, then should do what they think they must and stand ready to accept the consequences.

Another key problem that people repeatedly overlook is that if there is no real “foul” or serious oversight, then there is no such thing as an obvious “class” of people who are terrorists. If the United States has the power to classify anyone a terrorist or enemy combatant or whatever without having to justify this to anyone, then they can simply grab anyone anywhere, take them to hidden locations, and do whatever they want with them. The idea that there are certain classes of this and that completely collapse. Hell, you could be a duly uniformed soldier and I don’t really think that this would prevent them from nabbing you any time or place they wanted.

And what’s that old saying: once you have a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail? Well that has got to be way way extra tempting with torture. Suddenly, EVERY situation and captive is a potentially a ticking time bomb.
But none of this is academic: we’re already there:
filed today

According to the ACLU lawsuit, El-Masri, a 42-year-old German citizen and father of five young children, was forcibly abducted while on holiday in Macedonia. He was detained incommunicado, beaten, drugged, and transported to a secret CIA prison in Afghanistan, where he was subjected to inhumane conditions and coercive interrogation. El-Masri was forbidden from contacting a lawyer or any member of his family. After several months of confinement in squalid conditions, he was abandoned on a hill in Albania with no explanation, never having been charged with a crime.

They found out very soon that he was innocent: not the guy they had been looking for. He was kept for two months after that. No being charged with a crime, not being cleared of it. You just vanish and then reappear months later roughed up. The US won’t acknowledge or deny whether it held him or not, or what the hell happened. They apparently are not keeping records of what they do to people like this in custody, so his allegations are his words and injuries against the US Government. Germany, understandably, is a little ticked off.

Yep. This is a guy who leverages his former profession as cred for calling his political enemies crazy and implying that it is some sort of legitimate diagnosis.

Actually, I think it shouldn’t. I stated my position about these “extreme scenarios” many times. In such extreme cases, torture might be warranted. But this doesn’t mean you should get a free pass for this, or else, it could soon become a slippery slope, since how can we define what is and what is not an extreme case when torture becomes the correct path of action? On the other hand, if the situation is so extreme, if so much lives depends on this, surely it’s worth spending a couple decade in jail to prevent it?
So, if you think totrture is really, really, really necessary, you’ll think you did the right thing by using torture, and you won’t mind facing a long sentence because it was really, really, the right thing to do. If you think defusing the situation is not worth a harsh punishment for yourself, surely, it’s not worth torturing somebody else, either.

I’ll agree with that one.

The only way I can see to, in any legally feasible way, justify torture is to have enough evidence to prove in an impartial court that the individual does have information and that that information is of sufficient value. Given that current domestic law won’t allow us to even execute an individual until his guilt proven beyond a doubt and required to make (and fail) several appeals, torture goes down as much more unfeasible than immoral due to the required timeframe.

I’m going to offer a somewhat different tack here.

The issue here is not whether or not torture is/isn’t/is always wrong, but whether or not there should be a rule against torture. There are already several rules against torture, of course, most notably the Eighth Amendment; John McCain’s legislative wording would essentially clarify that it covers the actions of the US military.

The value of the rule against torture can best be illustrated by what happens if there ISN’T a rule against torture. Which is, of course, what we’ve seen now; low-level prisoners being tortured for no obvious reason.

Be it Charles Krauthammer or anyone else, there seems to be an assumption on the side of the anti-McCain-amendment folkks that anti-torture legislation will prevent some unnamed Jack Bauer superhero from finding out where the nuclear bomb is before the bad guy (played by Art Malik) sets it off and blows up L.A. In actual fact, that the McCain amendment will prevent is a lot of unnecessary suffering inflicted by random jerks in places like Abu Ghraib.

Let us assume, just for shits and giggles, that the Jack Bauer scenario actually were to occur. If the secret agent man realizes that Art Malik is holding back information about a nuclear bomb that will kill five million people, the moral thing is to torture him - irrespective of what the law is, and it’s safet to say that if Jack disarms the nuke he likely will not be prosecuted.

McCain, who has been tortured and so knows a lot more about this than Charles Krauthammer, knows the truth about this; the purpose of the legislation is to make torture the exception; in its absence it will become the rule. There’s no absolutes here; it may be necessary for Jack Bauer to pull out a few fingernails if something like “24” does happen, but the situation should be so extreme that he would not concern himself with legislation. The legislation is meant to stop this sort of thing from being so commonplace that the media will end up printing pictures of sub-moron reservists beating and tormenting common criminals in a dungeon.

The “24” defense though breaks down via the Paul rebuttal.

Jack tortured a guy in season 4 who was innocent.

No, the US military is already covered. All the McCain amedment does is extend the military rules to all branches of gov’t (bit of an oversimplification, but that’s the gist of it).

So, why were we able to prosecute the soldiers at Abu Ghraid w/o the McCain amendment? In actual fact, the McCain amendment wouldn’t change a thing for the military.

No. CK’s argument is clever, and it takes a subtle response to explode it (no pun intended).

It’s clever in that it presents his opponent with a dilemma. Saying that there are no circumstances in which you’d permit torture fails the red face test. “Would you permit the torture of one terrorist he had a bomb that could destroy the universe and extinguish all life?!” If you say “No” to that, CK will mock you for being impractical, a pacifist, a liberal, whatever.

If you say “Yes” to it, however, he goes, “Aha! So it is permitted–it’s just a question of where to draw the line!”

It’s a clever bait and switch: the bait is the monstrous case, the switch is for a non-existent continuum. I do concede that I would gladly have a government official torture a nihilistic scumbag in order to save the universe. I do not concede that there must exist a case in which I would waver between torturing and not torturing. “Well, lemme see, this guy has probability X of having info that could save Y number of lives, so it would be OK to use technique Z to get him to talk.”

As other have said in the thread, the cases in which torture would be permitted are so few that you should make the black and white rule against it.

Then I would mock him as having presented an entirely impractical hypothetical.

In my humble opinion things have come to a pretty pass when supposedly reasonable people feel compelled to present a defense for a defense of torture.

If the Israelis can deal with terrorism without torture than so should the rest of the world.

I made a post something like this here

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346404&highlight=torture

Basically in the book torture someone ripped Dershowitz’s arguments about a ‘ticking time bomb’ situation apart. But I forget the name of the author.
You can’t let the torture apologists write the rules for a conversation on torture. Most torture apologists make an endless list of assumptions

  1. Torture works for getting immediate information within the course of a few hours. A religious fanatic can probably hold out for a few hours.
  2. Only torture works. Nothing but torture will work to get that information, not psychological coercion, not incentive, nothing else.
  3. The US will be in a ticking time bomb situation where we have access to a criminal, and we will be able to get a qualified torturer in place in time to get the information.
  4. The US government will be able to tell with 100% accuracy if there really is a ticking time bomb situation and not a hoax, if they have the right suspect and not an innocent person or a low level worker, and if he has useful information. Seeing how the CIA was in the news lately for kidnapping an innocent German and sending him to Afghanistan for interrogation I doubt this.
  5. Torture has to be legal for people to engage in it. If an interrogator is 100% sure that he is in a ticking time bomb situation, 100% sure that the person has information and 100% sure that torture will gain the information he will not torture him anyway to gain the information. If anything, making torture legal just cuts those odds down drastically. The second self interest is taken out of the equation (ie, not putting the torturer under risk of pain himself via career and legal problems) his incentive to be 100% sure isn’t as important as its no biggie to him.

It bugs me. My mom listens to alot of right wing radio and when I’m home I have to listen to people make all these assumptions at face value and then expect the ‘iberals’ to offer a defense. Its silly.

Can we get a cite that Israel has a law comparable to the McCain amendment? I’m not saying I know they don’t have one, but that seems to be the unstated premise of your assertion. It’s unclear to me that the Israelis would not, under any circumstances, engage in torture.

I don’t think that’s particularly clever, although you clearly fell for it. That is, unless you misspoke in the quotes from the OP that I referenced in my first post. Do you now take them back?

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2001_1996/Israel9799.htm

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9909/06/israel.torture/

In 1999 the Israeli supreme court outlawed the torturing of suspects. That torture was pretty mild too, shaking people and putting hoods on their heads.

Well, Wesley is showing better than I am that it is a stupid argument.

But note this, from your second cite:

That’s a bit contradictory, but does seem to allow an “out” for unusual circumstances, which is exactly what CK is arguing.