Practical end to the intelligence debate

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=pizzabrat]
Superficially, it seems to me that all current debate about intelligence boils down to a lot of words, time, and money wasted on saying that blacks are stupid. Is there anything more to it than this? I have yet to hear any IQ enthusiast come close to intimating that there was any other purpose for studying this field. Is the entire area of psychometrics dedicated solely to proving that blacks are naturally dumb?

If so, what’s the point? Even if it’s true, what practical purpose does such a discussion or study serve that’s worth anyone’s funding? And why should anyone expect a genteel attitude towards an effort that’s inherently and pointlessly disparaging?
[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, it’s more than an academic question. Because the West can and should raise up black people if at all possible. Which we (westerners) have been trying to do for many years with mixed success.

If it turns out that part of the problem is genetic, then what I would propose is this: Study people who have high intelligence from their genes. Those genes must be affecting their body chemistry in some way. Develop foods and food supplements that produce similar effects. We know that there are foods and food supplements that can help you grow taller or stronger or thinner or fatter. If science focused on it, I think there’s a good chance we could find stuff that makes you smarter. Then distribute it widely in Africa or among anyone else who wants it.

It seems like we (Westerners) are afraid to consider the possibility that blacks are less intelligent because of their genes, and it strikes me that this fear may interfere with a solution to the problem.

22

[QUOTE=Honesty]
I’m torn.

On one hand, as a person who is all-but fascinated by the world of amino acids and ribonucleotides, I am, in part, fascinated by studies that attempt to examine human intelligence under the narrow microscope of scientific inquiry. I am, too, however, a black man, and realize that whites in the United States would not be able to handle science’s answer on the matter.

If the answer is “yes” then whites in this country will have to implement a flurry of social programs to take care of thirteen percent of its population who are burdened by the sloth of their IQ to do anything but crime, drugs, the NFL/NBA, and, on occasion, making good music for suburban parties. The idea that that the United States would cease social programs if blacks were considered intelelctually inferior is a KY-assisted wetdream thought up by some White Nationalists; indeed, if conclusive scientific proof were announced tomorrow that blacks are inferior, social programs will go up, not down. That’s not a matter 8-balling the future, it’s a matter of fact - the government will never allow the States enact policies that vaguely resemble Jim Crow. Legally speaking, how would the scientific nod to the idea that blacks are inferior trump the first three letters of our Constitution?

If the scientific answer is “no” then whites will have to acknowledge that slavery, Jim Crow, War on the Drugs, and Katrina are potent factors to explain the why blacks in the United States still, overall, are less successful than their white counterparts.

  • Honesty
    [/QUOTE]

But who will explain why blacks throughout the entire world are overall less successful than their white (and East Asian) counterparts, whether they are the majority or minority; whether they are new immigrants or original natives; whether the country is at war against drugs or not? You don’t have much to stand on when you focus your argument on blaming the United States.

The notion that “whites in the United States would not be able to handle science’s answer on the matter” might make you feel better, but it’s just a statement tossed out there as rhetoric, and is equally discardable.

Here’s an idea: How about we stop caring how to define any groups and learn to recognize individual achievement? We create special opportunities if you got cheated by circumstances–whether you were black or white. And we don’t give a rat’s patoot what your race categorization is, was, or will be. Let science do whatever it wants. What your population’s average is as a whole has no bearing on you as an individual because there is plenty of overlap.

My question, as a white male, is: will special interest groups go for that? Trade race-based affirmative action for elimination of racial categorization, for instance? You would still get a preponderance of special privilege to the underprivileged. You would just get one step closer to getting rid of race as a concept. Wouldn’t that be nice: Judge you not by the color of your skin but the content of your character; not some scientific (or unscientific) average of a whole population but your specific talent. Hmmmm…

23

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Is there a gene for intelligence? I see nothing problematic with this question. There are smart and dumb people in every “race”, and its reasonable to wonder if there is a genetic basis for this. What’s telling, however, is that this question always finds a way to become a race debate. If we were talking about any other quality (obesity, life expectancy, religiousity), I find it hard to believe that the discussion would eventually degrade into a shouting match about racial differences.
[/QUOTE]

What exactly is it telling?

If it is okay to study potential “intelligence genes” in individuals, why should population-level genomics be unacceptable? Does it matter if we’re talking about disease suceptibility, blood-type frequencies, hormone levels, or intelligence?

24

[QUOTE=Chief Pedant]
But who will explain why blacks throughout the entire world are overall less successful than their white (and East Asian) counterparts, whether they are the majority or minority; whether they are new immigrants or original natives; whether the country is at war against drugs or not? You don’t have much to stand on when you focus your argument on blaming the United States.
[/quote]

People have been explaining this for quite some time now. Some people don’t want to listen to/accept those explanations because they are so confident that answer comes down to genetics even though they don’t have any evidence. But that doesn’t mean that the question of why there are disparities is a true mystery. It’s not a mystery to me.

It’s “telling” that the intelligence debate seems to betray a certain fixation on race that coincidentally mirrors the theories circulating around in the days of slavery.

I never said that it is. Population-level genomics wouldn’t produce results that say “blacks are dumber than whites”, though.

25

[QUOTE=brazil84]
It seems like we (Westerners) are afraid to consider the possibility that blacks are less intelligent because of their genes, and it strikes me that this fear may interfere with a solution to the problem.
[/QUOTE]

Define “the problem.”

It seems you are saying that “we” have to find ways to show that blacks are stupid so that “we” can lift them up to our level.

Invent a problem then invent a solution and oh by the way make it so that both the problem and the solution make “us” look super.

26

[QUOTE=brazil84]
In my opinion, it’s more than an academic question. Because the West can and should raise up black people if at all possible.
[/QUOTE]
What?! Why?

27

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Define “the problem.”
[/quote]

The “problem” is that lots and lots of blacks all over the world seem to be suffering very heavily from poverty, anarchy, crime, and other social ills.

28

Perhaps you’re right. Science is well and good when it stays within its bounds, finding useful solutions to accepted problems and fiddling around with abstractions. But when it messes about with political and social issues, particularly if it so frequently appears to support the position of a discredited but still-fearsome ideology, it’s out of its depth, and that sort of research shouldn’t be pursued. I mean, you can’t divorce the abstractions of science from its momentous sociopolitical implications.

I’ll go arrest Galileo right away, sir.

29

[QUOTE=brazil84]
The “problem” is that lots and lots of blacks all over the world seem to be suffering very heavily from poverty, anarchy, crime, and other social ills.
[/QUOTE]

So are lots and lots of people of other races.

You have a solution? What is it?

30

[QUOTE=pizzabrat]
What?! Why?
[/QUOTE]

Because everyone of all races would be better off.

31

[QUOTE=athelas]

If it is okay to study potential “intelligence genes” in individuals, why should population-level genomics be unacceptable?
[/QUOTE]
The question is what’s the point. Mapping racial differences in intelligence is not a given for the study of intelligence.

[QUOTE=brazil84]
If it turns out that part of the problem is genetic, then what I would propose is this: Study people who have high intelligence from their genes. Those genes must be affecting their body chemistry in some way. Develop foods and food supplements that produce similar effects. We know that there are foods and food supplements that can help you grow taller or stronger or thinner or fatter. If science focused on it, I think there’s a good chance we could find stuff that makes you smarter. Then distribute it widely in Africa or among anyone else who wants it.
[/QUOTE]
Is that what’s being studied? Why is it necessary to tell us that blacks are stupid before doing this?

32

[QUOTE=athelas]
Perhaps you’re right. Science is well and good when it stays within its bounds, finding useful solutions to accepted problems and fiddling around with abstractions. But when it messes about with political and social issues, particularly if it so frequently appears to support the position of a discredited but still-fearsome ideology, it’s out of its depth, and that sort of research shouldn’t be pursued. I mean, you can’t divorce the abstractions of science from its momentous sociopolitical implications.

I’ll go arrest Galileo right away, sir.
[/QUOTE]

So…you got nothin’?

33

I also have lost sight of what the point is.

Are there some inheritable bases for various sets of problem solving skills? Obviously yes.

Might these skill sets vary between families, clans, and various other genetically differentiatable population sub-groups? Sure. And within them. Is there a debate about this really?

Is there utility in having tests that measure various problem solving skill set abilities that predict future performance, and advises about strengths and weakness that an individual might have? Also obviously yes. Is this really debatable?

Is there any possible usefulness in trying to force fit those tests that we have and their limited predictive value and meaning onto the sociologic groupings that we call “race”? None. Other than as proposed, to attempt to justify some already held belief set.

34

[QUOTE=pizzabrat]
Is that what’s being studied? Why is it necessary to tell us that blacks are stupid before doing this?
[/QUOTE]

There are a number of groups who benefit. The first group is the group that wants to prove that if you are poor it’s your own damned fault. The second group is the group that wants to prove that black people are simply inferior. The third group is the group that wants to prove that there’s no helping black people 'cause they’re just stupid anyway. And the fourth group just wants to feel all noble for helping the poor benighted savages, and the more poor and benighted they are to start with the better they can look in the end.

35

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
So are lots and lots of people of other races.
[/quote]

That’s true. But it seems like the suffering of blacks is greatly disproportionate. Anyway, the solution I proposed would benefit everyone.

See my first post in the thread.

Because the particulars of the problem will inform the solution.

For example, suppose it were discovered that blacks are less intelligent than whites, but it has nothing to do with their genes. Instead, suppose it is learned that black children simply receive less stimulation in their first year of life.

In that case, we (westerners) start cranking out mobiles and shipping them to Zimbabwe.

36

[QUOTE=brazil84]
For example, suppose it were discovered that blacks are less intelligent than whites, but it has nothing to do with their genes. Instead, suppose it is learned that black children simply receive less stimulation in their first year of life.

In that case, we (westerners) start cranking out mobiles and shipping them to Zimbabwe.
[/QUOTE]

If that’s how “we (westerners)” would chose to frame our intervention, then I’d have reason to believe “we (westerners)” are the stupid ones, not the black people in Zimbabwe.

37

[QUOTE=brazil84]

For example, suppose it were discovered that blacks are less intelligent than whites, but it has nothing to do with their genes. Instead, suppose it is learned that black children simply receive less stimulation in their first year of life.

In that case, we (westerners) start cranking out mobiles and shipping them to Zimbabwe.
[/QUOTE]
So unless the problem were framed that way, you can’t in any way study what makes some people less intelligent than others, and come to a solution like that?

38

[QUOTE=pizzabrat]
So…you got nothin’?
[/QUOTE]

I suppose so. Having people say that any investigation into the genetic basis of intelligence differences across genetic groups (a) is definitely motivated by racism and (b) definitely will not return any results…that does make any effort towards injecting more comedy into this discussion rather futile.

Although, I’d bet, you never expected the Spanish Inquisition.

39

[QUOTE=you with the face]
If that’s how “we (westerners)” would chose to frame our intervention, then I’d have reason to believe “we (westerners)” are the stupid ones, not the black people in Zimbabwe.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps – the issue certainly could be debated.

But it doesn’t really affect my main point, which is that “intervention” is appropriate and that the problem should be studied in a critical way to find the best “intervention.”

40

[QUOTE=athelas]
I suppose so. Having people say that any investigation into the genetic basis of intelligence differences across genetic groups (a) is definitely motivated by racism and (b) definitely will not return any results…that does make any effort towards injecting more comedy into this discussion rather futile.
[/QUOTE]

So, nothing (and my God, do you seriously think you’ve ever been successful at comedy, or even being clever?).