Pragmatist Philosophy Thread

I was on the Mayor’s Y2K taskforce, this time last year. Another member, a valuable and engaged member of our community, (an author and poet and philosopher) said to me, before anyone else showed up: Everyone knows you’re a hoaxster and a jokester and a hooligan. Why do you keep working for the homeless, the disenfranchised, the mentally ill?

I’m not completely non-introspective, but nobody had ever put it to me in those terms before. I had to do a quick review, then I blamed it on my Dad.

By nature, I dislike nearly ever hominoid thats ever dragged their rotting carcass across the face of this defiled planet. By nurture, I’ll jump your car at 30 below, find you housing, bum you a cigarette, write a grant to get your teeth fixed. Even if you’ve just lost a kidney and no one expects you to see 2002.

So I’m rather conflicted, here. My avowed rules are “whatever” but in actual life, more often that not, tend to end up doing what Da taught me to do: do good.

(whatever the hell that is)

Goodness Dr Pinky - I’ve just had my whole life explained to me. I feel liberated.

I’m a die-hard liberal who hates everyone and detests humanity.

Phew. Now that’s clear. I’m off to campaign for higher taxes whilst loathing those on whom the taxes are spent.

Yes yes yes. I see it now.

::runs free…::

pan

Just a little clarification on “Reduce suffering, increase joy” (RSIJ). I don’t mean the same thing as DUO. Like I said, I take pain onto myself because I can take it with a minimum of suffering. This protects someone who WOULD suffer considerably. I wouldn’t want them to take pain onto themselves for ME. That would be counterproductive. They should contribute however they are best suited. This is not to say I’m a masochist, though a masochist would do well to step in front of thrown punches or whatever.

You play to your strength, huh?

Actually, I agree. I often point out to others that in some cases the unfortunate circumstances that loom in the future can be deflected. In some of those cases, you can tell that although it will be unpleasant to let the crap land on you, the available alternatives involve crap landing on people who are simply not gonna be able to handle it. So, you take a hit for the team. You do it because you know it’s right. It still sucks when the crap lands, but you do it anyway.

Throwing masochists in front of punches, though, is not same at all. :wink:

Tris

Tris–I don’t know that I like the implication in that last post…because a masochist might like it he can’t be doing “good?” I hope that isn’t what you meant!

Anyway, to carry on for my personals, I left off where I defined two things: man’s inherent worthlessness and, notwithstanding, his “right” to act voluntarily in all things with all other men.

Now, there’s already a paradox there, but I’d rather not get into it. I’m mad enough that I can’t get rid of it as it is. Anyway…

“Good”, then, is any voluntary action that the receiving party, likewise, agreed to. Kind of soggy, I know. Bad, obviously, is any action performed on another person that they didn’t agree to. Of course, what if PersonA does something for PersonB that A thinks B will like?–like, oh, a suprise party?

Tricky tricky! I would dare say that at some point in A and B’s friendship one would have mentioned to the other, “I just positively gush over suprise parties!” and A would get the hint forever more.

Nothing, as well, requires a person to please themself. That is almost a corallary of voluntary action: a person always agrees with themself.

I think the most important thing to mention here is it is the reception of the act that causes problems, NOT the intentions. To wit: the road to hell is paved with good intentions, or some such saying. In the end, it doesn’t matter if you meant well at all because 1) its another person and 2) they probably don’t think like you. Intention should never be a source of guilt (“But I did it because I loved you!”) or a drain to sink blame into. How the action is perceived is paramount, always. This leaves the door open for “he said she said” arguments still, but again, it seems obvious to me that the reception of the act is far more important than the intention behind it.

I’m not sure how to wiggle this into a designed philosophy but I wish you were wrong aynrandlover. That people operate on how they perceive an action is the norm but a good philosophy of life should absolutely take into account other’s intentions.

  1. I walk up to you on the street and smack you in the face.

Likely Result: Aynrandlover wails on Jeff_42.
2) I’m pointing out to someone where the nearest McDonalds is and as I outstretch my arm I smack you in the face.

Likely Result: Aynrandlover gives Jeff_42 a dirty look and tells him to be more careful (or maybe wails on me anyway but with less enthusiasm).
I believe it is of huge importance in working my day-to-day life to guess other’s intentions. I may be wrong but I have to try. Unfortunately many people only look to the affects on them and react instead of trying to get a bigger picture of the situation and then make a more appropriate and measured response. If you can’t guess or don’t believe you have enough info to make a good guess then you should try to gather more info before responding.

Great point Jeff.

I agree, it seems only logical that one should attempt to interpret, if not outright ask, why another did a thing. But in the end, I must maintain that the effect is more important than the intention.

I mean this in a very critical way, as well. Consider punishing a child for doing something “wrong.” Not illegal, there are no laws yet (apart from the one I mentioned) but merely what you feel is wrong. Now, you clearly mean well, but it doen’t really matter what you mean, not to the receiver. Especially in a case like this. Only when you try to explin your intentions, or the reciever asks, is there going to be a reconciliation between act and intention. I am presenting it as a fact, basically, of co-existence.

For the record, existence exists, I exist, and other people exist, by the way. No solipsims for me.

Anyway, the cry “But that’s not what I meant!” is so common for semantic reasons alone that it seems obvious to me to somehow grasp this dichotomy of action/intention by the horns and get to it. I don’t like the result at all, but I can’t allow myself to escape it.

Not only that, interpretation of other’s actions leads to a huge struggle of morality in itself, no matter how well you know another person. Second guessing actions is so common that it largely goes unnoticed. And it is important to try to understand intentions, agreed. It is paramount to know what’s going on around you. But if it comes down to accepting what happened or guessing why, I say always choose the latter.

To be able to correctly interprt actions the actor must think like you do, at least in as far as the action itself is concerned. To be able to accurately interpret actions, the views must be similar, and you must be aware of the differences. Most of the time, however, questioning actions always has as a result questioning the actor. Unless the action was very simple this leads to a whole regression of how this person views such-and-such. At least, to me it does. I always think about things to the umpteenth degree of pickiness. Tend to overthink all problems, but I also don’t have many problems, so what can I say other than it works for me.

I also contest the idea that a philosophy should try to take into account other’s intentions unless there is an absolute set of morals. Otherwise, its all detective work. I try to allow for the maximum number of personal morals to exist independant of mine, but I seriously doubt that there is even one thing that everyone agrees on. Besides that, even my detective work is usually seen as hostile, at least by some people. I put words in people’s mouth because they aren’t saying anything or are too vague, and then I get accused of strawman arguments. And that’s fine, because that is how they see it. I can try and change that here, if anyone reads it, but in the end I accept that how I am to anyone BUT myself is exactly how I am perceived. Truly depressing to someone who loves to think :slight_smile:

So, to summaraize for Tris:

  1. no absolute set of morality exists
  2. no individual person has any inherent claim on any other person
  3. “Good” is defined as voluntary co-existence. “Bad” is defined by unwelcomed actions.
  4. A person always agrees with him/herself.
  5. Appearance outweighs thoughts-about-appearance; or, the definition of “truth” is observation. (it is, of course, an observation in itself to try and find out what the motive behind an action was through external questioning; internal questioning is never as valid)

I think that’s all I’ve said so far. I cannot demonstrate conclusively that I exist, that the universe exists, that anyone but me exists, etc etc. I am asuming a sort of standard view of reality above. Clearly, since I can’t even show that I exist for sure, I can say nothing about god. :smiley:

Damn it! What I mean to say, I hope it was clear, was that one should choose the former. Man o man, forget semantics, I can’t even say what I mean enough for someone to try and figure it out! hahah
:stuck_out_tongue:

I wasn’t questioning the masochist at all, I said throwing them in front of punches is not really the same as taking a punch yourself. You and the Masochist might accomplish a result that has some merit, by you have done nothing I find worthy if you make the choice for him. He can enjoy his pain if he wishes, and it makes his act no less worthy, if it is his act. If you make the choice, he is just another victim, albeit a happy one.

It is a fanciful example, but it overlies a serious point. The misinterpretation of the “Golden rule” to imply anything I think is beneficial or desirable is therefore a good thing for me to do to you ignores your will. I might want someone to become sexually intimate with me. That doesn’t make it right for me to assume the feeling is mutual. The fact that I want them to “do unto me” real bad doesn’t change that. I want to make my own choices. That is the first test of every deed I do unto others. It might not be the only test in every case, but it weighs very heavily in every case.

Tris

I had only suggested that the masochist could choose to throw their body in front of a punch meant for someone else, thus saving someone some suffering and perhaps enjoying themselves at the same time. Like I enjoy volunteering for youth camps. I help society and enjoy myself at the same time. I do not suggest we use the masochists as human shields at the next protest. That would not be the same. Really I think masochists need to see a psyciatrist, and perhaps develop some healthier urges.

:smiley: Wow, there is entirely too much agreement in this thread.