Prankgate: mistake or lie?

[Sam_Stone]

Elvis1Lives: You’d better go back and read what I’ve been saying. First of all, I don’t hate Democrats, weirdly or otherwise. I guess you’ve missed the numerous threads where I have come out in defense of a number of Democrats. I happen to not believe in much of what Democrats believe, but I can have political differences with people without hating them. But then, I’ve heard it said that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Republicans think Democrats have bad ideas, but Democrats think Republicans are bad people. If so, that’s a shame.

Second, I never claimed that Clinton was under-investigated. I was talking about how the stories originally broke - the mainstream media was caught napping on almost all of them. Al Hunt (a Liberal Commentator) was talking about the fact that the mainstream media appears to have been asleep at the switch, which allowed fringe players like Matt Drudge and The Enquirer to scoop them. From his perspective, that was lamentable, because it gives them credibility they don’t deserve.

And I fail to see just how all this reflects on the ethical conduct of the administration. If anything, this sounds like a small story that got out of control because the LEFT wanted to find a way to drag this administration through the mud. My best guess as to what happened is that a bunch of new staffers whined about the old ones, Ari Fleicher got wind of it, personally saw some damaged goods, and decided to comment about it to the media. The *administration immediately pulled back from that comment, in at least one case flatly contradicting Fleischer’s statement (George Bush said that it was ‘completely false’ that things were taken from AF1, and pleaded to let the matter drop. He said that he was satisfied that no real harm was done).

From the administration’s standpoint, this makes total sense. Why burn political capital on a meaningless issue? Bush was right to say, “Forget it. Let’s talk about important stuff.”

However, since then the issue has refused to go away, until we’ve gotten to the point where many on the left are starting to accuse the administration of flat-out lying. So now they are forced to defend their original assertion or let the charge of lying stand.

Just what about any of this strikes you as being unethical? If Officemax can show that $2000 was spent on replacement keyboards, does that not corroborate the main story? $2000 will buy you about 100 keyboards, which is the original number mentioned as having been damaged. Most of the rest of the damage wouldn’t be traceable because it would have just involved labor - things like tearing the labels off of phone jacks and switching the phone lines around. That would have just caused a bunch of aggravation until they sorted it out, but there wouldn’t necessarily be a receipt for any sort of repair. It’s just one of those things where you get a phone call, it turns out to be for a different extension, so you sigh and and get up and switch the phone cords around.

It’s you anti-Bush people that won’t let this issue drop, and quite frankly at this point I hope Fleischer comes up with documentation for everything and rubs your noses in it. If the damage is in fact real, then the Bush Administration was being very magnanimous in forgetting it all, and people like you turned it around and tried to use it against them.

[minty_green]

Yeah, what’s wrong with all you Democrats, anyway? You should be apologizing to the Republicans for being smeared by unsubstantiated charges of mass vandalism and destruction of government property. Damn reprobates.

:rolleyes:

[ElvisL1ves]

*Originally posted by Sam Stone *
Republicans think Democrats have bad ideas, but Democrats think Republicans are bad people. If so, that’s a shame.

So the entire constant get-Clinton-and-all-his-friends campaign, of which this is just the latest episode was simply a policy disagreement? Please.

Second, I never claimed that Clinton was under-investigated. I was talking about how the stories originally broke - the mainstream media was caught napping on almost all of them.

Maybe because they generally didn’t exist, perhaps?

And I fail to see just how all this reflects on the ethical conduct of the administration. If anything, this sounds like a small story that got out of control because the LEFT wanted to find a way to drag this administration through the mud.

Please. Where did you think this story came from? The vast left-wing conspiracy planted a derogatory story about themselves just to get the right-wing conspiracy on the defensive? Please.

No, the conduct of the Bush Administration and its cheerleaders in solemnly reporting these lies (ref. the stolen paintings, the trashing of AF1, etc.) IS what’s important. If you don’t think telling lies to defame someone else’s character is unethical, then I can’t help you. But that does help explain your Clinton-hatred.

Just what about any of this strikes you as being unethical? If Officemax can show that $2000 was spent on replacement keyboards, does that not corroborate the main story? $2000 will buy you about 100 keyboards, which is the original number mentioned as having been damaged.

I ask again, if the evidence exists, where is it? If it doesn’t exist, why has Ari Fleischer not said simply “It didn’t happen” instead of “Please drop it” - certainly you know as well as he that lets the insinuation stand.

It’s you anti-Bush people that won’t let this issue drop, and quite frankly at this point I hope Fleischer comes up with documentation for everything and rubs your noses in it. If the damage is in fact real, then the Bush Administration was being very magnanimous in forgetting it all, and people like you turned it around and tried to use it against them.
**

In short, you not only hope but even expect that evidence finally comes forth to validate your continued support of the anti-Clinton smear campaign that YOU folks won’t let drop. But it won’t - at this point, there is no reason left, other than your simple desperate hope, to believe that such evidence exists, or ever did. The same is true of Whitewater and everythingelse-gate, may I remind you.

To continue to believe that there are actual significant facts behind any of these allegations is, frankly, beyond sad.

[december]

*Originally posted by elucidator *
**OfficeMax has confirmed that the “$2,000” of taxpayer money spent to replace the “W” keys and the ravaged computer keyboards were donated by OfficeMax! **

Thank you Elucidator for providing evidence that there was extensive keyboard damage. It’s nice to be on the same side for once.

** And that picture? Turns out it is a hallway in the building where stuff is stashed when they can’t find another place for it!**

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me where that picture came from. We can’t blame it on W unless his people distributed it.

(Wait. Over there in the corner. Isn’t that a blue dress?)

Does this comment mean that the stories about vandalism are as false as the stories about a blue dress?

[elucidator]

*Originally posted by Sam Stone *

If anything, this sounds like a small story that got out of control because the LEFT wanted to find a way to drag this administration through the mud.

Not quite. Not a small story. No story at all.

However, since then the issue has refused to go away, until we’ve gotten to the point where many on the left are starting to accuse the administration of flat-out lying. So now they are forced to defend their original assertion or let the charge of lying stand.

I accuse the administration of flat out lying. Yep. That’s it all right. Flat out lying.

Just what about any of this strikes you as being unethical? If Officemax can show that $2000 was spent on replacement keyboards, does that not corroborate the main story? $2000 will buy you about 100 keyboards, which is the original number mentioned as having been damaged.

Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! It proves only that OfficeMax was dumb enough to believe it! If I claim that Newt Gangrene shot my dog, and you buy me a new dog, that corroborates my story?

Most of the rest of the damage wouldn’t be traceable because it would have just involved labor - things like tearing the labels off of phone jacks and switching the phone lines around. That would have just caused a bunch of aggravation until they sorted it out, but there wouldn’t necessarily be a receipt for any sort of repair. It’s just one of those things where you get a phone call, it turns out to be for a different extension, so you sigh and and get up and switch the phone cords around.

They said the lines were cut, Sammy. Not mucked about with. Cut.

hope Fleischer comes up with documentation for everything and rubs your noses in it. If the damage is in fact real, then the Bush Administration was being very magnanimous in forgetting it all, and people like you turned it around and tried to use it against them.

Bet me! Here’s my nose, bring on the documentation and start rubbing away. May I presume the offer holds in the alternative? It’s been, what, three four days now that the threat of an impending avalanche of documentation has been floating about. See any yet? The “magnanimity” of the Bush administration has as much substance as an omelette made of Sasquatch eggs!

They fed this crock of shit to thier favorite tame journalists. Read thier columns for the time, you can find them over at Creators.com “Shock”,“outrage” etc. When that fell through, they backpedaled to having too much dignity to substantiate the utterly vaporous. Now they are simply hoping that silence will make it all go away. The word is not “magnanimous”. The word is “busted!” If they won’t own up to it, and my bet is they won’t, collectively, they haven’t got hair one.

Petty? You bet! So am I. Bring it on!

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by elucidator *

[pious, self-righteous Republican style pomposity]

The American People have been lied to! Special Prosecutor! Special Prosecutor! This isn’t about sex! It’s about integrity, and the violation of trust! I am sure such stalwarts of public order and decency such as Milo, December, and Scylla will rush to support this movement.

[/pious, self-righteous Republican style pomposity]

I await thier response “with the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces”. (Mark Twain) **

WTF?

I’m not participating in this thread. Why are you dragging my ass into this pathetic little smug tirade of yours?

Kindly take your disingenuous knee-jerk mischaracterizations, fold them up with your four aces, and put a cork in it.

I have no interest in this verbal diarhea.

[elucidator]

This unworthy one beseeches your pardon if he has offended the austere dignity of Your Scyllaness. I depart now to sit by the river and throw pebbles at my toes, in the Ancient Tasmanian Ritual of Self-Abasement, followed by a phalanx of Embittered Virgins, intoning dirges of woe and humiliation.

[Sam_Stone]

Scylla: Don’t feel bad. I’m now an evil Clinton-hater, even though I’m on record as saying that I thought the pranks were actually pretty funny, and certainly not worth getting upset over.

I see no one has responded to my point that George Bush himself has repeatedly stated that this was no big deal, and in one case basically said that his own people had been wrong (the incident with AF1). It’s not that often that a president will come out and flatly contradict his own people, but I guess Bush gets no credit for that.

Sure, it’s possible that none of this happened, in which case what you have is a *very minor story, in which either Ari Fleischer made up a story, or some staffers did and he repeated it without checking. The administration immediately backpedaled on this, and pleaded to just let the whole thing drop. No names were named, no charges filed, but here we are six months later, with the Democrats in this forum almost foaming at the mouth over this horrible slight to their man’s integrity. Please. No one should care about this at all, on either side.

And BTW, if the administration had kept up about this, I’d be standing right with you demanding that they put up or shut up, and apologize if they couldn’t. But they haven’t. This whole thing has blown up over an off-hand comment by a white house official, followed by some reporters on AF1 claiming that stuff was stolen.

Hey, if you are on the left, you’ve got lots of legitimate reasons to dislike the Bush administration. Why are you focusing on this nonsense? Perhaps because you’re anxious for a little mud-dragging payback for 8 years of Clinton bashing?

Elvis1Lives: Yeah, you’re right. Those were all non-events. Paula Jones never existed. Whitewater never happened. Monica Lewinsky is a figment of our imagination. Let’s see… Paula Jones wound up getting a settlement from Clinton, a number of people went to jail over Whitewater, and Monica Lewinsky wound up getting the President impeached. Nope, no stories there worth checking!

But I just heard that one of the Bush Daughters drank a beer! Stop the presses! We’ve got a front-page scoop!

[Squink]

Sure, it’s possible that none of this happened, in which case what you have is a *very minor story, in which either Ari Fleischer made up a story, or some staffers did and he repeated it without checking.

If Fleischer repeated false information given to him by staffers he needs to apologize for spreading damaging rumors, and also discipline the staff members involved.
If he lied, he needs to apologize, and then resign as he failed to fulfill the pledge he made to Bush of avoiding the appearance of impropriety; or were those much vaunted claims of moral rectitude nothing more than political theatre for the ignorant ?
If by some chance he was telling the truth, did Bush’s instructions to “move on” include destroying evidence and actively frustrating the first GAO investigation into the affair ?
I guess we’ll find out after the next investigation.
Nah, this isn’t going away any time soon.

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by elucidator *
**This unworthy one beseeches your pardon if he has offended the austere dignity of Your Scyllaness. I depart now to sit by the river and throw pebbles at my toes, in the Ancient Tasmanian Ritual of Self-Abasement, followed by a phalanx of Embittered Virgins, intoning dirges of woe and humiliation. **

You’re not getting off that easily!

[elucidator]

Actually, Scylla, I get off very…
No. I won’t go there.

That would be wrong.

[Scylla]

I’ve decided on your punishment. If you want my forgiveness, penance is required.

You must go to the pit thread dedicated to Jet and explain to them why they are wrong until they understand you.

Do that and I will reinstate my formerly high opinion of you.
This post will self-destruct in five seconds.

[ElvisL1ves]

Sam, the actions you describe are those of someone who’s caught doing exactly what he’s used to condemning others for doing, and trying to weasel out. It’s not nobly trying to raise the tone and move on - if so, that would include some statement along the lines of “There have been some misunderstandings that have unfairly damaged the reputations of innocent people, and we’re sorry that happened”, not “They’re well advised to leave it alone”. Which approach do honorable, decent people take when others are unintentionally hurt by their words or actions, and which approach is taken by those whose words and actions were intentional? Is it clear now what this episode illustrates, therefore why it matters, and how important it is that it be learned from?

As for that last paragraph, please explain the point you’re trying to make - that the campaign to get Clinton for something, which you earlier (and incredibly) suggested was simple policy disagreement, finally found a blue dress? Well, congratulations. I take it you consider that vindication of this noble effort. Now where’s the Whitewater evidence - aw, screw it, just flip back to Page 1 of this thread, where you and Milo and December couldn’t weasel your ways out and dropped the subject.