Questioning the “myth” status is the entire point and what it measures.
The fact that you arguing that a woman should have expected and just accepted non-consensual sexual touching or fondling a.k.a. groping a.k.a. sexual assault because they took a waiting job matches up with them.
FWIW as worded, all of the statements on that page are myths, but feel free to select one if you want me to answer why it is a myth, long standing urban legends feeds several of them.
Could you give some examples?
Not women - people. Anyone who works hospitality for any length of time knows these things happen. Hot waitresses have guys make sleazy comments at them. Attractive guys have thirsty older women getting a bit “friendly” with them. It’s disingenuous to call those things “Sexual assault” because it trivialises actual assaults like rape.
Even in non-hospitality fields, people accept unpleasant things will happen as part of the job. Retail workers will get abused by angry customers. Builders might be caught outside in inclement weather. Posties will be chased/attacked/barked at by dogs. Farmers might get kicked by a goat. They’re known as “occupational hazards” and I would suggest that an overly long arm-touch is as much an occupational hazard for waitstaff as copping an earful from an angry customer is for someone in retail.
It’s not ideal, but it happens, and everyone knows it - and it’s not particularly serious.
Martini Enfield, it may be useful to change the gender of the actors to something you don’t prefer, as it helps remove some bad assumptions that these “myths” teach you. While I may not know your preferences I am going to switch it as far as possible.
Lets pretend I hired you to cook burgers at my BBQ, when you showed up I handed you a beer, a contract that you weren’t allowed to read and required you to wear a speedo.
Lets say that that there was no BBQ, and as a 6’2 man I made you hold your hand and occasionally grabbed your ass or your junk. If you tried to back away in a corner I had biker dude yell at you and make you go back to the tables, where other men were trying to cup your balls and offering you money for anal sex as a bottom.
Now consider that a the attendees are local business leaders and leading politicians who would destroy your job prospects if you complained or filed a police action.
When considering the unlawful part, which in Australia seems to be called “indecent assault” and is punishable by up to 5 to 8 years in prison is your fault?
[ul]
[li]Is the fact that you accepted the job in any way responsible for causing my behavior.[/li][li]Does the fact that you are wearing a speedo make it OK or less offensive to you that I groped you without concent.[/li][li]If you were ok with me patting your bottom, do you still have the right to say no if I start fondling the shaft of your penis?[/li][/ul]
Obviously this attempt fails if you like that setup, and I am not trying to same people that do.
But lets be clear, accepting a service industry job doesn’t make you a prostitute. And even sex workers need to provide concerns, and can decide to withdraw consent at any time they wish.
The fact that they were in tight dresses doesn’t change that right to say no at all, nor does it shift ANY blame from the one party that was responsible for the action (the person committing sexual assault)
The victim is called a victim for a reason, while “rape” may not have happened the critical aspect in every one of those cases is that it is shifting blame from the responsible party to the victim.
It doesn’t matter if a woman is in a burka or a babydoll, the rules are the same and really very easy to follow. They really only get confusing if you think touching others without their permission in a sexual way is acceptable behavior.
Unfortunately it is trivial to miss that point, especially with the common myths about rape that are handed around as fact. While the term irks people this is what people are talking about when they mention rape culture.
There shouldn’t even be a single question surrounding the rights of waitstaff and their right to consent. Cultural myths are one of the primary reasons it isn’t viewed in this context by default today, and that makes the term ‘rape culture’ pretty descriptive.
But feel free to try and convince me how taking a waiting job removes your right to consent or to refuse to consent to sexual acts…because you are seeing some option I am obviously missing. If so let me know how much you charge to work a BBQ 
…having “worked in hospitality” doesn’t make you an expert. I would hazard a guess that at the very least a quarter of the members of this board have worked in hospitality in some way or another. Grabbing an ass is harassment and is unacceptable. That you personally made the decision “not to accuse them of sexaully assaulting you” is a decision you are entitled to make. But that doesn’t magically make sexual harassment magically stop being harassment.
I was in the hospitality industry for fifteen years, doing everything from washing dishes and scrubbing pots to managing state dinners for some of the most important people in the world. I’ve worked in every major venue in Wellington, and most of the major venues in Auckland.
Would it astound you if I said I never experienced, nor never gave the sort of pre-event verbal briefing that you described?
Guests with wandering hands are not acceptable. There is no “unfortunately” about it. If a guest grabbed any of my staff by the ass they would be ejected from the venue, trespassed and the organiser of the event put on notice. And if the staff member wanted to take it further then I would back them 100%.
If the events of the last year haven’t been a wake up call for you, and if what happened at the Presidents Club hasn’t been a wake up call for you, then perhaps this thread might be the wake up call you need. Putting hands on asses is not acceptable. And while you might not mind a random stranger putting their hand on your arse if you put your hands on a server’s arse don’t be surprised when you end up dealing with serious consequences.
And its time that it fucking stopped. And the first step to getting it to stop is to stop making excuses for it and to stop defending it.
It is sexual harassment. It is disingenuous to call sexual harassment “sexual assault” and then complain that we are trivialising rape.
Not particularly serious?
Sexual harassment isn’t particularly serious?
Its really hard to take your opinion on sexual harassment particularly seriously.
Would you care to elaborate on this?
Note what is missing from all of you examples above? Unwanted sexual touching, assault, groping etc…
But by your logic, if a Police officer dies in the line of duty it was there fault, can the shooter just walk away with no risk of trial? How about if I hit a construction worker while I am talking on my cell phone with my car because I drift off the road. Are they to blame because I was negligent.
The actions we are talking about here are criminal offences, which are not enforced because just like in the thread we trivialize them.
By this same logic…should alter boys accept that they will need to pleasure the priest, or is that within your arguments circle of empany?
Explain to me why getting groped as a waiter is a special exception on being guilty for being victims of a criminal act.
Sleazy comments, someone being too “friendly”, getting verbally abused, inclement weather, chased by dogs, kicked by goats, etc.
Occupational fucking hazards.
Where is the personal physical contact that frightens, degrades, dehumanizes? Is it hidden under “friendly” ?
How much am I getting paid for this? Assuming award rate, it’s “Yeah, no thanks, enjoy your BBQ” exeunt
Again, how much am I getting paid for this? Assuming award rate, see above. “I’ve got a headache, I’m going home. Bye.”
Also, was it made clear prior to going in that most of the guests would be homosexual men? A combination of “It’s mostly homosexual men” and “You have to wear speedos” means I would assume that someone was likely to get a bit handsy so I’d either consider that an occupational hazard and deal with it like a grown-up, or decline the work.
Simple. I won’t complain or file a police action. I’ll chalk it up to experience and move on with my life.
I don’t recall saying it did, and this is what’s making this whole situation so absurd - trying to conflate pretty minor stuff with prostitution and sexual assault and other things, and getting all horribly bent out of shape when someone says they disagree.
Yes, they are. Glad you agree with me.
It’s under “harden the fuck up” in most cases, unless it’s overtly threatening or waaay out of line (fondling boobs, trying to slide a hand up a skirt, that sort of thing).
Since quite literally every conversation I can recall us ever having on the boards involves you being some form of critical, unpleasant, condescending, or argumentative with me - no, I would not.
Only ONE of your examples of occupational hazards could possibly be physical, unwanted sexual contact by another human being- and that was a stretch.
Is it women-with our sexy human bodies,-just have to suck up the additional risk?
Sorry, Ladies, deal with the occupational hazards of being girly?
Eta I mean: harden the fuck up?
…this is great debates. We have different opinions, so we will debate: that’s what this place is all about. If I’m “critical” then why does that surprise you? If I’m argumentative, well what exactly did you expect in a forum called “Great Debates?” And if you find me condescending, well, I can’t control your feelings.
I can guarantee you that no matter how “unpleasant” you find debating me, it is no-where near as unpleasant as what hospitality workers experience when they are being sexually harassed. So if you could do us all a favour and stop defending sexual harassment. Sexual harassment, despite your opinions, is deadly serious matter.
It applies to guys too. Most of my previous post addressed a scenario where a male waiter (well, me) is on the receiving end of the same sort of comments/behaviour the ladies at this event allegedly faced.
“Comments/ Behavior” - how many times did you feel threatened?
Eta: I can field comments like a pro. It’s threatening contact that becomes dodgy as fuck.
I’m not talking about this conversation alone. I’m talking about every interaction I can ever recall us having on these boards, ever.
…I know what you were talking about. How does that change anything I said?
And can you stop making this personal? If you don’t want to answer the questions I asked that’s fine, I’m not going to force the issue, just don’t respond and I will do likewise.
So are you going to elaborate or not?
When you said this: did you really mean that a patron putting their hand on a waiters arse is “not particularly serious?” If that isn’t what you meant: what did you actually mean?
I’ll stop making it personal when you stop going out of your way to constantly argue and disagree with me on (it feels like) everything I post on the boards. So no, I’m not answering your questions in this thread or elaborating further for you.
…good grief.
I have a fundamental difference of opinion with you in a number of different areas. So when you post something I disagree with I’m going to tell you I disagree with you. I’m going to make a case for why you are wrong. I’m going to back up my case with anecdotes and evidence.
That’s the opposite of “making it personal.”
You used the fact that you had worked in the hospitality industry to make the case that “this is how it happens, everybody understands that, that’s the way its been, thats the way it always will be, whats the problem?”
I’ve had a long career in hospitality at both the “lowest” and the “highest” levels. In my experience your assumption of what happens at pre-event briefing is wrong and I told you that. I acknowledged your right to not complain about having your arse grabbed but I don’t think that “arse grabbing” should be normalised simply because it “wasn’t a big deal” to you.
I posted a pretty comprehensive and on-point rebuttal to your posts here. Anyone can scroll up and read exactly what I said. It is unfair to characterize my post as an “attack” and I haven’t singled you out. And I’ll be honest: you posted some stuff earlier in the thread that I would have argued with as well but I didn’t because you’ve accused me of “constantly arguing with you” before so I decided not to post. I don’t intend to make you uncomfortable posting here. But I disagree with you. So what is it you expect me to do?