Pretty unhappy about having to switch from Samsung to Google Messenger by July 6th

While I’ve no doubt but that Samsung Messenger does some data scraping, I’m pretty unhappy that it’s shutting down and I am being guided to Google Messenger. Google will scrape and monetize every name, phone number and message. All words, all contents, all contexts.

Yes, I know there’s WhatsApp AND Signal and any manner of other services. But I can’t make people pick a new app. I have to stick to a Messenger service that most people will be using, or I can’t be in touch with them. I’ve been told that Signal is private end-to-end. I think that’s sales bullshit. None of this is “private”.

For one thing, all of the Two-Step Authentication services offered by many account I have are now useless. In a fraction of a second, an incoming verification code can be captured by Google. Most are good for 10-15 minutes. So much for secure. I now have to go and alter all that will allow me to, to…to what? Email?

Anyone have a reasonably secured Messenger service that they use? And that MANY others are using?

Meta states the same for WhatsApp, but I don’t trust them either. I’m using it anyway, because almost everyone does here in Germany

Unfortunately I think this is a lose-lose situation for you, because it’s not simply a matter of which app you use, but also the underlying protocol the app itself uses, and the operating system around all of it too. Signal is as good as it’s going to get while still being mainstream enough to be practical – but only if you’re talking to another Signal user. That, or get an iPhone if you trust Apple more.

Let’s start with the Google Messages privacy stuff: Understand the basics of privacy in Google Messages - Google Messages

Google says they’re not recording your messages or using them for ads.

If you don’t trust them, fine, but they also control RCS, the network protocol that carries your messages, which Apple only very reluctantly began to support recently. At least it’s supposed to be encrypted.

If you disable RCS, your phone falls back to SMS, which isn’t encrypted at all, and any cell carrier or government can read and use that however they want.

And if you don’t use either, well, Google still controls Google Play Services, which is basically a rootkit on your phone, and of course Android itself.

If you are really worried, Apple is the only mainstream alternative. There’s also more niche options like Fairphone or Librephone or Pixel phones with GrapheneOS, but none of them will be as easy to use as your current Samsung or Google Messages.

IMHO only: Google is probably not scanning all your messages. If they really wanted to do that, they can trivially do that outside of Google Messages anyway. The government almost certainly is, which RCS at least provides some token protection against.


As for text based 2FA, it was never the most secure option anyway. Switch to app based 2FA or passkeys, both of which are provider agnostic standards that exist outside the text messaging and RCS networks.

Fundamentally… privacy is a two-way street and a network effect. If the person you are communicating with doesn’t care, you can’t force it on them. And people by and large don’t care and aren’t going to jump through hoops just to talk to you, unless you’re a journalist or such (and even they just use Signal).

Regardless of whether or not Google is data scraping your messages, I’m not sure what your concern is here? Do you think Google is taking 2FA messages and using them?

I shared the OP’s feelings when this situation first came up, which is when I found out about things like SMS vs. RCS and some of the other related stuff that I am only slightly less ignorant about now than I was then. Basically I shrugged and went with Google, because what else am I going to do? I just take what refuge I can in my relative obscurity as a person. I haven’t seen any uptick in spam or other annoyances, if that was even an issue.

Is there any particular reason to believe Apple is less evil / untrustworthy than Google?

Of the Big Three, Apple’s desire to create a captive walled garden that was interoperable with nobody has always (since the 1990s) struck me as the most evil idea. Call it original sin maybe.

The others are latecomers to the idea of evil. But boy are they embracing it too.

In the context of the OP (privacy concerns): Relative to Google, a smaller percentage of Apple’s revenue comes from advertising, so presumably they have less incentive to scrape all your messages. From what I can see, Google is fundamentally an advertising company, while Apple is fundamentally a software marketplace that takes a cut of every iPhone app sold. Both sell consumer hardware too, but hardware is more important to Apple than it is to Google. All these things give Apple a slight boost in the privacy arena, I think.

And specifically about phone snooping, Apple’s RCS-equivalent protocol (iMessage? I forget the technical name for it) is completely proprietary (Apple to Apple only) and was Apple’s baby that they were able to develop on their own and force upon carriers, unlike RCS that was co-developed with them — maybe this means fewer technical compromises, though I haven’t actually studied this part in depth.

On the iPhone, definitely. We were lucky that Google rushed Android out at the time it did, or the iPhone might’ve completely taken over computing and become an absolute monopoly.

On the Mac… well, I mean, software incompatibility across systems was always a thing, from the Unix days through the early DOS days to IBM PC compatibility, etc. Windows just happened to win in the home and enterprise spaces, but it’s not really meaningfully more or less open than Macs these days, as far as I can tell — they both have proprietary app stores but nobody uses either one much, and they both require code signing for apps, but both provide ways to run whatever you want if you’re willing to jump through hoops.

If Linux is the gold standard for personal computing freedom, at least macOS is closer to that front, being a UNIX (as opposed to things like Windows Subsystem for Linux) — that’s a usability concern more than a compatibility one, though. For actual Linux compatibility, Windows computers typically ship commodity x86/x64 hardware, which actual Linux can run on a lot more easily (compared to Asahi Linux on Apple Silicon, which is an uphill reverse engineering battle against Apple’s proprietary chips and undocumented drivers).

Also, Google is in the process of closing off Android more too: https://thenewstack.io/f-droid-says-googles-android-developer-verification-plan-is-an-existential-threat-to-alternative-app-stores/


IMHO: I don’t think either company is “big E” Evil, as an authoritarian government might be, but both are flawed in their own ways. Google has some defense-related activities that I, along with some of their employees, don’t approve of. I do wish Apple were more open with their hardware and software (I’d love to run macOS on standard x86 hardware, and Linux on my work Mac laptop).

Were I a moral purist, I’d probably avoid both companies — Google more than Apple, though, just because the scope of their activities (defense, AI, advertising, IAAS via Google Cloud, Google Search, Gmail, etc.) makes their international political relevance and “blast radius” far, far wider than Apple’s.

But I’m not really, so I just guilty use products from both companies :sweat_smile: I have a Mac and iPad and Airpods, but also an Android phone and a Windows computer and a Gmail account I use for everything. They all have their pros and cons.

But in the context of the OP, I wouldn’t trust any of these devices with my privacy. I don’t think online privacy is a real thing anymore, and if I were truly concerned about either corporate or government snooping, I think it would require staying offline and off the grid and not using any internet-connected devices or credit cards or cars, living outside of cities, covering your face as much as possible, randomizing your gait every time you walk, etc. But I don’t want to live that way.

Yeah, with cameras everywhere, and everyone snooping on electronic communication, I’ve basically given up on privacy.

I use Signal and WhatsApp, which make some claims to privacy (signal’s is better, but both have issues), i also use email and SMS and discord, which make no privacy claims. My phone is usually on me, broadcasting my location to anyone who cares. Half my neighbors and every commercial establishment i visit are videoing everyone and everything in sight. And then, many people bug their own homes with electronic assistants. :woman_shrugging:

Welcome to the Age of Enshittification! :angry: