Preventing Rapists

That’s the attitude that is wrong, and must change.

WHY is it that “guys” believe that coming up to their room at 3am is an implicit invitation to sex? Where did that learn that? Who taught them this? And what can we do to stop them from learning this?

And what can we do to convince people that it’s not acceptable to accuse those who think that it’s not ok to act like this of “bitching and moaning”?

brickbacon, the attitude you just expressed is the core of the problem. What are you going to do about that?

I would say that it is the responsibility of the person initiating the sex act to ensure they have actual consent, woman or man.

No, that’s one side of the equation that must change. Women are going to have to understand that when it comes to sex men are basically idiots, and if you show up at our room at 3AM wearing lingerie we’re going to draw certain inferences. Men are going to have to understand that no matter how much it seems like a woman wants to have sex, if she says no it’s time to step back and spend a night with Hustler.

But to be frank, the species wouldn’t have survived long if men didn’t draw some inferences about women wanting sex. Really, I have never had a woman ask me up for coffee at 3AM without it being an open invitation to sex. Never. I can ask around, but I’m betting nobody else I know has either. Even the lesbians. If you invite a guy up to your room, or go up to his late at night you are most definitively making a sexually provacative move. Doesn’t mean he gets to have sex with you, but it is what it is. Stripping naked in front of a guy and jumping in bed doesn’t negate saying no later, but you’d better expect him to be hopping in after you.

Women taught us this by coming up to our room at 3AM to have sex with us. Really, if you see this as a nonsexual issue you’ve got serious problems in the relationship department. You can’t stop us from learning this, because most of the time when women come up to our rooms at 3AM it will always be to have sex, so don’t even try. Women are just as capable of making sexually provocative moves as men, so there’s absolutely no reason that men should be re-educated to believe that nothing women do is an invitation to sex.

Women need to be re-educated to understand that men are not after a night of cuddling by the fire with a bottle of Chardonnay. We want sex. The rest of it isn’t bad, some of it is quite nice. Secretly, we enjoy a good cuddle every now and then too. But mostly, we want to have sex, and the rest of it is just the side effect. All your guy friends who like to hang out with you and have long talks, they’re just trying to get in your pants. If you don’t want us to think you want to have sex, that’s fine, but if you’re constantly trying to stop just a hair short of sex there’s going to be some confusion.

Men need to understand that no means no. We don’t need to know not to hit on women, we don’t need to know not to try to convince women to have sex with us, we don’t need to view women as asexual beings because we don’t need to do any of those things. We just need to not force ourselves on anyone. And despite what some people seem to think, most of us have that down quite nicely.

Nothing. It is bitching and moaning. Going up to a guy’s room at 3AM means, 99 times out of 100, that you want sex. There is absolutely nothing wrong with thinking that’s what it means. It’s the forcing a girl to have sex the 1 time out of 100 that’s the problem.

Condescending in the sense that, IF you proclaim that mere incapacitation is requried for rape, then both parties are raping each other because they are equally incapacitated!

It’s saying to both parties that they can’t be trusted with alcohol: women because, in their “incapacitated” frame of mind, will make the wrong decisions which we have to protect them from, and men will become rapists.

Everyone’s body is different, but I’ve chugged 12 drinks in a row many a time and the stupidest thing I’ve ever done on it is burnt my tongue on some over-nuked food. If these men and women can’t be trusted not to things much more out of the ordinary than they would do while not inebriated, perhaps we should not let those people drink!

You might actually support unequal penalties for men and women who get drunk and have sex with each other, but it’s ludicrous and belittling to the term to call it rape.

The same reason women are constantly surprised and confused when their man doesn’t want to commit, or doesn’t call them the morning after.

Bingo! Just found this thread and haven’t read it through. Demorian , please see the Pit thread about prisoner being an idiot–this discussion here flows from that one.

The answer is NOT to make all women proficient in self-defense. As repeated ad nauseam in the other thread, safety tips help–as does common sense. But safety tips etc, do not change the mindset of the date rapist, the sociopath, the average rapist–that is what this thread is about.

This is so simple, so easy, and so absolutely true. It’s not a panacea (as there can still be the argument over whether consent was given) but it is certainly a major step in the right direction for many reasons.

And Brickbacon, I’m not ignoring your post, but things are a little crazy at the moment. I have seen most of the studies that you posted, but not all (the Canadian one flew under the radar, as I looked exclusively at US ones). There is certainly some truth to the criticisms of Brownmiller’s work, but I also think Greer makes some mistakes in his analysis. What is interesting about the New York numbers Brownmiller uses is their dramatic change after the the police there moved to specialized, female staffed, rape units. That’s when the number dropped in a major way. I think that to an extent explains why the FBI number is much higher. Now you can look at that in two ways - either male officers don’t believe a lot of women who claim to have been raped, or female officers believe a lot of women who are lying about having been raped. For multiple reasons (including some of those I mentioned to Catsix, such as the desire of prosecutors (and police) not to take on cases they feel they cannot win), I think the first is more likely. The second, however, is at least conceivable.

I do apologize for the hijackign that went on - it really wasn’t my intention. I simply responded to a post sayign that there was no evidence that the rate of false reporting was low. To answer the question that the actual OP poses, I think the answer lies in education. I don’t believe (and I think the evidence bears me out) that the majority of rapists think they are doing anything wrong. They think either the woman means yes, or that she has an obligation to ‘put out.’ Therefore I think that the more education focuses on dismantling rape myths, the better the situation will be. This won’t prevent the violent stranger rapes, but should reduce the date rapes. Despite the reputation I seem to have now with at least one poster of being a man-hating feminist, I think people would react wwell to this education, as if they come to view what they are doing as rape, they will want to stop doing it.

Do you seriously think that you are the only one here who went to college and/or have experience with the Pan-Hellenic nonsense that exists there? I dated a Resident Advisor of a frat when I was in college–he was placed there BECAUSE of the sexual assaults, hazing and other “boys will be boys” crappola that went on. I am sure his presence helped–but as a female, I saw plenty of cajoling, whining and intimidation done in that House to make those female visitors “put out”.
Believe me, “she was asking for it” is alive and well on all campuses–I look askance at your whole stance, given that you do not seem to be aware of this.

Are the frats the sole source of date rape and sexual assault on campus?–of course not. But it is a good place to start on the entitlement nonsense that so many, many young men seem to possess. THAT attitude and the harm it can do, is what we would like to impact on and what we are discussing here.
Snide remarks about PSA’s etc aren’t neccessary. Why not do a PSA? I think it’d be great. It would be a start and it would show people that respecting boundaries is a human issue-and one that is OK to discuss and be aware of.

And who made you the moral arbiter of this thread? Who are you to proclaim “progress”?

Why is it up to educating the female? All that you just said could be applied to the male. I have no idea why you would want to teach masturbation in schools–do you think that women don’t know how?
Of course sexuality can be taught w/o “abuse”. It’s done every day. What is needed is a not only courses on human sexuality and it’s issues, but also a sea change on the attitudes of both men and women when it comes to rape–in all it’s facets–and also in de-mythologizing the other gender to one another. It’s a societal issue and needs to be addressed in daily life–not by some specially funded project–although, that wouldn’t be a bad start.

So, it’s MTV’s fault by airing those Spring Break shows? WTF? Is this a version of the Twinkie defense? I agree that TV shows and pop culture can add/reinforce already existing attutides. I’ll even go so far as to say that TV could impact in a more respectful, positive way concerning this issue, but it is not up to pop culture to “make” a guy respect his date’s “no”.

You say that this cannot be done. I highly doubt that you are correct, but if we, as a society, continue to only wring our hands and bemoan this–I do know that nothing will change.

http://www.studentaffairs.cmu.edu/SAA/myths.cfm

“Most rapists plan their attack like any other criminal. Fact
Ninety percent of all rapes are planned. The rapist has planned to have sex with a specific woman or man. Rape is a violent crime that uses sex as a weapon of power and control.”
Men don’t turn into rapists just because the opportunity arises. It is a planned assault. Getting the other party (or both parties) drunk is a typical part of the plan.

I don’t know what can be done to change the mind set of a rapist, and this thread makes it clear nobody here knows either. I’m not sure there is anything short of Clockwork Orange style reprogramming.

That is why the discussion keeps turning to practical methods, and the two basic practical methods of preventing rapes are punishment and precaution, neither of which is in the scope of this thread, so I won’t go into my ideas about either one.

I think the whole “late night invitation-sex or not?” issue is a big neon sign that we, as a society, need to start getting over our Victorian hang ups when it comes to sex. The whole coy, “Oh, I can’t invite him up for SEX!!! He’ll think I’m a slut!”

We have to use euphemisms, and hope the other person will understand what we’re talking about.

I think the point of this thread though, is to stop the rapists from becoming rapists when they’re YOUNG. How do we educate young men and women about sexual relations, so that they respect people, so that someone doesn’t end up seeing sex as a right, that someone OWES them sex.

90% of rapes are planned. Rape is rarely, if ever, a result of a “misunderstanding.”

Rape isn’t caused by guys who, when told no, think “she came up to my room, so she must really want it even though she just told me no.” That’s ridiculous.

It is guys who think “I’m going to manipulate her into being alone with me, and preferably drunk, so I can have sex with her no matter what she says.”
Telling these guys that “no means no” or that “going to your room doesn’t mean you get sex” has no effect, because they already know that. Indeed, they planned for it. The only way to stop these guys is punishment (both to scare them and prevent repeat offenses) and precaution (telling women how to avoid their plans).

Oh, I agree with you that it wouldn’t prevent rape.

But it would lessen misunderstandings and people accusing one another of being a cock-tease or a horny leech.

The fact that you could even attempt to pass that statistic off as fact is a clear sign of either ignorance or dishonesty. Not to mention that the conclusion you draw from the cite is dead wrong. Even if you believe this stat, all is really says is that 90% of people accused of rape had a plan to engage in sexual intercourse with the accuser, not to rape them. Note that I didn’t use the word rapist because they have not been convicted. Your statistic means nothing. I have a “plan” or desire to have sex with 99.9% of the women I take out on dates. That doesn’t mean I am planning to rape them. Even, if a woman were to think I raped her, it would shed no light onto whether or not I had planned it before hand. Did you ever think how they could have ever come to the conclude that 90% of all rapes are planned? When you consider that, by their numbers, only 3% of “rapists” are convicted, why would 90% of those they interviewed admit to having planned to commit a crime they are being accused of? That would be retarded. You bullshit detector should have gone off immediately. The cite you linked to is garbage.

My problem with the arguments many of you present is that you are so bias toward the accuser that it is blinding you. You refer to those accused of rape as rapists with full knowledge that the vast majority of cases end up as he said/she said. To automatically assume the man did it is unfair and wrong. Thats is not to say all these women are making it up, just that thier perspective often doesn’t match the man’s or what an objective observer might think. What I think most of us can agree on is that even though a man’s life can be destoyed be allegations of rape, a woman who truly thinks she has been raped has suffering much more. To me, the greatest inroads can be made by educating women to be assertive and to avoid situations where thier behavior can lead to a situation in which they may feel they have been taken advantage of (whether of not they have actually been). It is fine to disagree with the effectiveness of my proposal, but it is not fine to accuse me of being part of the problem.

If it is the core of the problem, it is only that way because some women are too dumb to see the writing on the wall. There is nothing wrong about drawing the conclusion that you are about to have sex if a women comes up to your bedroom late at night. I am not going to change my “attitude” because there is nothing wrong with it and it, in and of itself, does not contribute to women being raped.

[sarcasm]It doesn’t? That’s surprising, seeing as I just said it did.[/sarcasm]

I agree. Believing that a woman who invites you to her room late at night probably wants sex is fine. If she says no, you stop. No problem.

I think you are identifying too much with rapists, seeing them as just having honest “misunderstandings.” That isn’t so. Rapists don’t care if the woman says no. They plan to have sex with her no matter what.

If you think rapes are “misunderstandings”, then yes, I am afraid you are part of the problem.

I agree, no means no and I understand that. Yes except that you are making the assumption that those who have been accused are, in fact, rapists. If you are only talking about the 3% that are convicted in a court of law, then I would agree with you. For the purposes of this argument, we can assume they did it, and that they are rapists. But all of what you said leads me to believe that you equate accused with rapist. That is wrong. I don’t think most “rapes” are that clear cut, nor do I think that the woman (in most cases) has explicitly said no. Of course that is my opinion, and I can understand if your opinion is different, but don’t put words in my mouth.

That would be great, so maybe it’s a good idea to keep that separate. Selling it up as a solution to rape might just be a setup for disappointment.

I have done the following things in my life:
[ul][li]Walked through the streets of Waikiki alone and unescorted at pretty much every hour of the day and night, including 1 and 2 in the morning.[/li][li]Escorted men to their hotel rooms in Waikiki.[/li][li]Slept naked in a bed with a man I’ve had sex with before and would have sex with again and not had sex with him.[/li][li]Slow-danced with a man, feeling his erection pressing against me at a hotel and, later that evening, continued exchanging double entendres with him. About 6 weeks later, at a different hotel in a different city, I brought him back to my room when he had a headache and needed a break because he was staying in his RV which was parked some distance away. I hugged him, made sure he was all right, and left.[/li][li]Asked for a man I was attracted to to escort me back to my camp when I was slightly tipsy and continued to laugh and sing for a bit before going to bed alone.[/li][li]Gone to weekend parties alone at hotels where there have been some drinking and quite a bit of flirtation.[/li][li]Sat naked in a hot tub with several people including at least one with whom there’s been a certain amount of mutual attraction, laughing and talking, [/li][li]Travelled alone fairly extensively in Japan, England, and America.[/li][li]Caught the last bus home alone and walked from the bus stop home.[/li][li]Travelled through some rather bad neighborhoods in various cities.[/ul][/li]
I get the impression brickbacon thinks I would have deserved it if I’d been raped in any of these situations.

For the record, the stuff I mentioned in Waikiki happened when I was working as a tour escort in Japanese tourism. Part of my job description was checking people in and out of their hotel rooms and making sure their baggage got to the airport along with them. Because I lived in Waikiki, I tended to get the wee hours assignments. The men I mentioned sleeping naked with are men I was in relationships at the time. When I brought a man back to my room, it was at a Mensa event; when I was escorted back to my camp, it was at an SCA event. I’ve flirted and danced at both. As for the travelling, I’m single and I enjoy travel. While I do take reasonable precautions, I refuse to let myself be limited by fear.

Now, I admit I would not go back to a hotel room with a man who I thought was drunk and I tend to be careful around people who are drunk in general. Come one, I can think of a couple of people I won’t play Hearts with when they’re drunk. The reason for this is I know people who are drunk aren’t necessarily in control of themselves or their actions. In my book, that does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions, whether the action in question is acting obnoxious while playing Hearts, forcing someone to have sex with you, or agreeing to have sex with someone you ordinarily wouldn’t. One of the reasons I’ve never been completely drunk is I’ve seen the way people act when they are and I’ve no desire to act like that.

Here’s the thing. In the subcultures I socialize in, there is no expectation of sex from either of the sexes. As I mentioned earlier, there is one man I know of who’s been known to be behave objectionably around women; this is why women are very seldom left alone with him and a close watch is kept on him. He has been repeated called on his behaviour but, since he hasn’t changed in over a decade and it’s getting harder to believe he’s that clueless, other steps are taken. I suspect that if someone were to be raped at an event held by any of the three groups I’ve socialized with most over the years, the Episcopal Church, the SCA, and Mensa, as soon as word of this got out, the victim would be seen to, cared for, and reassured; the police would be notified, and the rapist tracked down. If the rapist were a member of any of these organizations, while he or she might continue to pay dues or attend church for a while, he or she would be ostracized and quite possibly never trusted again, and that’s if he or she was lucky. There is an awareness in all three cultures that if a man or woman dances naked on a table right before your eyes, you are still not entitled to have sex with him or her and you are still required to treat him or her with respect and courtesy. Respect and courtesy, by the way, include giving them something to cover themselves up with, and no, I haven’t actually seen this in any of these organizations – even Episcopalians aren’t that liberal! :wink:

I was talking about this thread and its counterpart with a friend last night, the one who was accused of being a sex predator. There’s one thing we could do which hasn’t been mentioned yet. People tend to think in stereotypes. I’m older than a lot of things around here, but I think the stereotype of “Madonna or whore” still persists. Either a woman is available for and enjoys sex, in which case she’s available to anyone, or she is not available and uninterested in sex. Such women do not put themselves in situations where people are interested in sex which includes situations where people are drinking, flirting, etc. At least, that’s my perception of the stereotype. Now, I’m a healthy adult woman who enjoys sex a lot. I have also had very few lovers in my life and will not have sex with a man I haven’t known for a long time and trust completely. I like laughing and dancing, although I don’t care for drinking, and I love double and triple entendres. I suspect some of the remarks I’ve made would make Dopers blush. In my 30’s, I realized I even knew how to flirt. I also know how to make it clear to a man his intentions are unwelcome and I’m not afraid to do so loudly and publicly. I don’t give off mixed signals. I have about as much subtlety as a punch in the nose or a kiss on the lips.

Here’s one thought, although it’s a little too close to “blame the victim” for my comfort. If we could remove the stigma of being raped, change the perception that a woman who has sex with one man is available to any, that might help. If we can make it clear to society as a whole that being raped is something which is no more shameful than being mugged or conned, it might make it harder for men to get away with rapes and clear up some misperceptions.

Oh, by the way, brickbacon, while I can’t speak for KellyM, when I use the term “rapist”, I use it simply to mean a person who commits has sex with someone against his or her will. There’s no implication of legal conviction or proof. There is simply an act which is done whether two people know about it or two thousand people know about it.

CJ

It seems like our society is stigmatizing women for alleging rape in much the same way women have been stigmatized for being raped, only in addition to making her life hell, they are denying her experience altogether. People are doing this while claiming to be sympathetic to actual victims of rape.

The message becomes any women claiming to have been raped probably wasn’t and the subsequent sypathy for the accused is palpable. Are we encouraging boys to become rapists by letting them know that the consequences for being accused of rape may be positive?

This seems to be outside of any reality of which I am a part. ‘Positive’ effects of being a rapist? I can’t say that i know of any parent that subscribes to this.

I think we’re confusing the issue. A lot of acquaintance rape stems from an aggressive nature and a sense of entitlement to sex once certain conditions have been met.

I don’t know how to remove either of these conditions from our sexual landscape. The fact is, aggressive guys have a lot more *consensual * sex than non-aggressive guys (nice guy thread anyone?), so convincing men that this is a bad thing is not going to work.

As for the other, we can work on this (no means no, etc.) but a lot of underlying assumptions will remain, if only because we have never verbalized the courtship ritual to the extent where everything is clear. People seem to *like * the mystery of it all, and that’s why you get snickers from people (not just guys!) when people try to formalize it. ‘May i kiss you?’ ‘May I put my hand on your leg?’ That’s just not feasible in any universe any human has ever inhabited.

The best we can do is to reinforce that once she has said ‘No,’ then it’s over. Do not pass go, definitely do not collect $200. I think that most, if not all parents, do this. The question is whether this is in sync with what kids find in the world. The first time that ‘No’ really means ‘Yes,’ all of your carefully constructed teachings fly out the window.

As for rape in general, I figure we’ll be shut of rape the day after we’re done with murder. But that’s just the romantic in me.