Ok, I know this is a delicate subject. Up until the 1960’s nearly all the blame for sex was placed on the woman. Her entire life was examined and judged. Clearly that was wrong.
The pendulum has shifted way too far in the opposite direction imho. No matter what the circumstances, the guy is the one put on trial these days.
A few examples…
Man and woman go out bar hopping. Both become heavily intoxicated. The guy initiates sex. The woman briefly rejects him. But, decides to just let things proceed. Both parties are not thinking clearly at this point. Bad decisions were made by both. But, if the woman presses charges the next day, we know exactly who will be rotting in prison for quite a few years.
What about these 15 and 16 year old girls that hook up with adult men? For example, this lovely 15 year old is screwing a 28 year old homeless guy. Did he somehow dazzle her with his gorgeous 2 room cardboard box? Give her bracelets made of chewing gum wrappers? He’s not exactly the dashing playboy that sweeps the naive girl off her feet.
What about the 16 year old girl that steals some cash, hops a bus across country, and meets up with some stranger she met in a Internet chatroom? I’ve seen that news story countless times. Sure, young kids aren’t capable of making decisions. But, anyone that’s raised a teen knows full well that a 15 or 16 year old has a mind of their own. They do what they want.
How much longer will the courts put all the blame on the guy? There are two people in a relationship.
No one wants to see guys completely avoid criminal charges by blaming the woman. But, can’t the blame be shared? Whats so wrong with looking at the circumstances that led to the criminal behavior? Perhaps adjust the prison sentence.
One thing that should be off limits is any past history. Maybe the lady has a habit of bar hopping and one night stands. I completely agree that’s off limits in court. You shouldn’t put on trial for past behavior.
You gave one example of a drunk woman two examples of girls, not women. I think most responsible women do take responsibility for sex and their decisions regarding sex. Plus sexual assault, statutory rape, and the like are not the same as responsible sex. So I am not sure what you are asking.
Women are responsible for taking brith control, usually are the ones who bring condoms, and have almost all the power when it comes to saying no and rejecting sex. I think we take a heck of a lot of responsibility for sex.
As for statutory rape charges, your argument falls flat there.
It is the police who does the punishing there. Do you know of any cases of 16 and 17 year old girls, who actively and voluntarily participated in a romantic and sexual relationship, and then, out of the blue, start crying rape ?
I don’t think so. If they do, nine out of then times it is their family or the police that puts pressure on them to do so. In the case you linked to, that is what happened. The girl tried to keep it a secret, her father checked her phone, saw the texts, and dragged his daughter to the police.
So what should “taking responisibility” for the girl be then? Pleading to her parents, who are her legal guardians, and to the police that to her and her boyfriend it was true wuv, not rape and that she would hate to see their boyfriend go to jail? I bet you that is what such girls do, crying hteir eyes out to their families. And it doesn’t make any difference to the judge. She’s a minor, he isn’t, they had sex, the family presses charges? Clear case. To jail.
So, what then? Should they take responsibility by trying to break their boyfriends out of jail by seducing the prison guard?
Personally, I think that statutory rape punishes a lot of people that have done nothing wrong morally, to satisfy an cultural overly puritan view on sex. But the one to blame for this stance is not the individual young woman, it is society.
Another example happened in NY last year. An area of the city had a groper. Concerned cops walking the beat, advised a few woman not to wear shorts or short skirts walking home late at night. It was really just common sense. There’s a groper pervert out there. Dress sensibility for awhile until he’s caught.
Needless to say. The police dept did some quick backpedaling. Probably disciplined the officers. Next time they’ll bite their lip and let the woman set themselves up as potential crime victims.
Should woman wear whatever clothes they want? Of course they can. But is it wise to be out at midnight, walking alone with your ass hanging out of short shorts? Especially with a known grouper operating in the area?
That’s another example of taking responsibility for your own actions. Halter tops, short shorts are fine at the park or beach. Midnight, walking alone in a urban area? It’s not the best choice.
I’m sorry but that just fucking pisses me off. Why is no one in this situation talking about maybe, teaching men to NOT FUCKING GROPE WOMEN. Why do we have to be the responsible ones and how does it get to be our goddamn fault?
The one time I was groped I was wearing pants and a loose t-shirt. Not exactly sexysexy material! Didn’t matter because it wasn’t about sexuality, it was just to show that the man could do it and get away with it. These men just don’t fucking care and this is in the long run why: because we are not trying to change the behavior at the source and instead expect women to protect themselves from these crazies.
We need to start somewhere else. It should never be “boys will be boys” or “that’s just how men are.” It should be “Keep your fucking mitts off women who don’t want to be touched”. And it should be taught day in and day out.
My point was, that cops had extra patrols in the area. They were trying hard to catch this pervert. But they get in trouble for informally asking a few ladies to reconsider what they were wearing late at night? This wasn’t an official police dept announcement. Just some concerned cops working that area of town.
The most common sense suggestion gets these ladies upset. There’s no interest in taking some responsibility for their own safety. It was a temporary solution until the perv could be found and taken off the streets.
OK, it’s not an exact equivalent, because there’s nothing inherent about being a man that makes one inclined to grope.
However, I know that in areas where there have been thefts/muggings in the past, I’d be really pretty stupid to get my smartphone out and text as I’m walking around with earphones in. I know that I need to be aware of my surroundings, because there’s assholes around. If someone took the phone from me, it wouldn’t be my fault per se, but I really should have taken precautions.
I should be able to wander around with expensive goods upon my person anywhere without the fear of it being stolen. Clearly that’s not the case, we live in a broken world.
I don’t think for one second people who would sexually assault another don’t know that their actions are wrong. Some people just don’t give a shit.
So yes, whilst there are assholes out there, it’s probably sensible to take precautions. I know I do. But the idea that the victim of a crime shares the blame, no, that’s completely wrong.
Let me add one more data point. I am, in your terms, “responsible”. I never dress skimpy. I don’t go to bars and drink. I never get drunk, let alone amongst people I don’t know well. I don’t walk at night.
I’ve still been molested and groped and touched inappropriately. I’ve never been raped, thank goodness.
You just can’t avoid it sometimes.
Fake Tales, I actually totally agree with you. We should be sensible and cautious, and that* shouldn’t* add to our blame. Just the idea that it will all be better if we just do X thing right makes me :rolleyes:
Now, if you don’t like getting stared at by men or hit on, that’s another story, but that not remotely what we’re talking about.
I was also confused by the OP’s bringing up instances of statutory rape because A) women get arrested for sleeping with underage boys and B) the OP is talking about WOMEN “taking responsibility” not girls.
No, we don’t live in a “broken world.” We live in a fairly decent society in which some people transgress against others and some percentage of those people aren’t punished because of a lenient attitude towards such transgressions and some percentage of those people would not transgress if they were better educated that such behavior is unacceptable.
Not everybody who carries expensive things with them get robbed in our society. Not every woman who dresses in a particular way gets assaulted. Indeed, as Anaamika points out, there is not actually a correlation between a woman’s dress and sexual assault.
As to the general topic of the OP, I believe that sexual encounters that were mutually consented to at the time they occurred should not be punishable, and that should include encounters between those currently defined by law adults and some group of people currently defined by law as minors. Now exactly where that line should go isn’t entirely clear to me, but roughly speaking, I think in this day and age and in this society 16-year-olds should be considered competent to consent.
But that’s a different argument than your OP. As already noted minors however defined have no legal recourse to “take responsibility for sex.” They simply are unable to do so in matters involving statutory rape, ipso facto.
If you want to have a debate about whether the the age of consent is a bit too conservative, that’s fine. But you’re probably not going to be able to do it in this thread, because you have already muddied the waters by setting the stage for a debate on responsibility ;). You’ve got two ( at least two ) only tangentially related arguments floating around here.
Is there any evidence that “dressing provocatively” increases the likelihood of attack? In fact I can’t find it but IIRC there’s even been a study that indicates it lowers the chance of attack, which arguably makes sense (she doesn’t look like a victim, and apparently advertising sexual availability attracts the kind of men who thinks in terms of persuasion, not force). A conservatively dressed, timid looking woman is probably more likely to be attacked than a sexily dressed confident and aggressive looking one; criminals tend to go after people who give off a “victim” vibe.
And walking alone at midnight in an urban area is a bad idea for anyone; if anything it’s a worse idea for men, men are more likely to be the victims of violent assault than women.
No. There is evidence that dressing in a sexually provocative way doesn’t matter either way, other factors matter far more. But then we are talking about instrumental crime, and some sexual attacks will not be rational that way.
Scientific study; TLDR-version.
My apologies, I’m not doing a good job framing the issue. Probably because it’s muddled in my own mind. My employer held mandatory sexual harassment seminars that were such an eye opener. I’m so thankful that I’m middle aged and married. I wouldn’t want to be 18 and dating now. It’s a minefield out there now.
Ironically, women are so much tougher and stronger than when I grew up. Military women work in combat zones, they may soon fight in the infantry, there’s women construction workers, fireman, police and even women boxers. Very tough, physically demanding jobs. There’s women gangs in the inner city that are just as violent and dangerous as the guys.
Women can take care of themselves. But we’re still locking up a lot of men for date rape and sexual harassment. Domestic abuse by women (against men) is still very rarely prosecuted.
I’m rambling and it’s because things are so confusing these days.
“Is it time women took more responsibility for sex,” the OP means sexual assault. Different topic entierly. Yes! Step up to the rape plate, sisters! All you cougars pouncing on young boys, lets make Sadie Hawkins Day into Sadie Chickenhawkins Day!
Blaming the victim: In many places, it’s illegal to leave your car running and unattended. It encourages car thieves and expends police resources. Law abiding citizens who’d like to leave for work in a warm car on winter mornings grumble, but they don’t put up the same objection as women who are discouraged from walking in dangerous areas. What tie-in issues make this so?
This is ridiculous. Telling women to take responsibility for rape and assault is victim blaming, and it is disgusting.
Let’s take your insulting theory about the way women dress: even if you were to openly flaunt your expensive iPad and it gets stolen. Then what? You want the victim to apologise or something? In what way do you want them to take responsibility? You don’t want them to walk around like that, but the fact is it is their right to. The right to wear what you want is perhaps even more fundamental, and after a long of control even more important to women.
The very idea is ignorant because rape and assault are about power, not about sex. What women wear makes no difference. Telling women they can prevent rape and assault by dressing a certain way is a way of controlling women’s sexuality, it’s telling them a lie and it’s laying the blame with them when something does happen.
Equating the way women dress with people flashing valuables and thereby inciting crime is one of the many elements of rape culture.
Your other points are: it’s not rape if you were both drunk and consent was implied (which may or may not be true) and teenagers should be able to give consent. They are unrelated to women taking responsibility for sex.
I can assure you: women take responsibility for sex. A lot. All the things you mention, women have heard before. And it all equates to: “if you weren’t such a slut, you wouldn’t have been raped”. Don’t walk here at this time, alone, or with these people, wearing that, don’t drink, or have too much fun or look shy or too assertive. None of this fantastic advice did me any good. But thanks, I’ll be sure to take responsibility. I’ll just go down to the police station now and explain that actually it was kinda my fault.