Since this thread I started in MPSIMS was hijacked and locked, I’m starting a new one to ask this age old question: If a woman is dressed in what a man perceives to be “like a slut,” does that give him justification to rape her?
Of course it does. What, are you living in the 21st century or something?
(or 20th, 19th, etc.)
I’m going to go out on a limb and say “no”. It absolutely does NOT justify rape. In fact, nothing justifies rape. Flame away!
Come on, do you really think anyone is going to answer “yes” to this question?
There’s never any justification for rape under any circumstances whatsoever. Even murder under some circumstances might be justified, but rape never is…it’s a completely atavistic crime.
No. She may be asking for something, but it’s not rape. If I beat a guy senseless who says ‘She was asking for it’, was he ‘asking for it’?
You bleeding heart liberal!!! I bet you condemn pushing grandma into oncoming traffic, too. You’re so predictable!
I believe that murder, by definition, is not justified.
As I said in the other thread, I don’t think dressing proactively or like a slut even means anything. It means so many different things to so many different people. To some, a tight tank top might be fine, to others it’s seriously indecent.
Not even bin Laden?
You can kill someone without “murdering” them. Murder, by definition, is unlawful.
It’s debatable (see the thread currently in play in this forum) whether or not we murdered ObL. Personally, I think we did.
Well, arguably he posed an established and ongoing threat to the security of the United States.
Yeah, I really wonder what you expected or intended, in starting this thread. Did you expect anything other than “of course not” interspersed with a few joke responses? I thought the kinds of people who have such Neanderthal attitudes wouldn’t be posting here.
The issues that were threatening to break out into debate in that other thread were
(1) whether or not dressing provocatively increases a woman’s chances of being raped, and
(2) whether a woman who voluntarily does risky things or puts herself in risky situations deserves any part of the blame if she ends up getting raped. (Which is a subquestion of the general issue of people who end up being crime victims after taking what may be seen as undue risks.)
Obviously John believes that killing bin Laden does not meet the definition of murder. Or, conversely, his definition of murder requires that the killing be unjustified.
A bit of a “true Scotsman” argument, perhaps, but not an uncommon position.
The OP is a pretty weak straw-man of what other people were saying in the linked thread. The arguement wasn’t that dressing in revealing clothing made one morally responsible for being raped (or made the rapist less responsible), it was that it put someone at greater risk for being raped, and so it would be wise to dress more conservatively in situations where there might be some risk of sexual assault.
I don’t necessarily agree with that argument (I have no idea if woman are more likely to be raped when the dress “slutty”), but it seems silly to try and start a thread with an over-the-top dishonestly paraphrase of the other side. As others have said, no one is going to take the other side of your debate if you phrase it as “do some woman deserve to be raped” anymore then if you phrased it “do some puppies deserve to be beaten”.
I think that is debatable. But if I had to weigh in, with the facts available, I’d say it was murder. We might call it assassination, but that’s just another flavor of murder.
No, because we have other words (like manslaughter) when the killing is not considered murder. And it’s not my definition.
Hmm. So you would then, from your earlier post, also say that the killing of bin Laden was unjustified?
Of course, the real question is - how was Bin Laden dressed? Was he asking for it?
I agree that there’s no justification for rape and that it’s exceedingly unlikely anybody would say yes to the question in the OP. And I wanted to compliment you on your use of a word that doesn’t get enough play.
Maybe I’m splitting hairs here but I’m not sure “she was asking for it” is supposed to be a justification. It’s a pathetic excuse and an attempt to downplay the crime.
If a woman says “Would you please have sex with me?”, is she asking for it?
olive’s point–that rapists don’t choose victims (or even choose to be rapists) based on their attire–is very strong. I’ve honestly not heard it before, and would like some citations about it. Does this apply to acquaintance/date rape also, for example?
The point about torture is less strong, IMO. There’s actually a [fictional] area in Miami where this happens. If you go into that neighborhood wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt, there’s a pretty good chance that some of the locals will administer a bloody beat-down that could end with them carving their initials into your face or otherwise mutilating you. The crimes are horrifying and beyond despicable. They have absolutely no excuse or justification for committing the crimes.
And if I need to go into those neighborhoods, I won’t wear a Che Guevara T-shirt.
That said, if I’m talking to a victim of such torture (actually let’s leave the analogy behind, return to the real situation) or to a victim of rape, the last thing I’d do is lecture them about what they should have done. That’s a despicable response.
I experienced a far, far, FAR milder version of that response myself when someone stole the radio from my car. I told the police my car had been broken into. They asked for specifics: was the window broken? No, I told them: it was in my driveway, and the doors were unlocked. “Then it wasn’t broken into,” they told me, sneering, and for the rest of the conversation they made it very clear how stupid they thought I was. Thanks, guys. I was mildly put out with their attitude.
If instead of having my radio stolen I’d been raped, I can’t imagine how traumatic a similar attitude would have been.
There are almost certainly things that can be done to lessen the risk of rape. Sensible choice of attire may or may not be one of those things. But if someone doesn’t minimize their risk, and then they are raped, it does not lessen the guilt of the rapist, nor is it productive or compassionate to scold the victim for their actions.
It depends on to whom it was addressed.