Being my mother is a die-hard Catholic while i’m agnostic, she has been dismayed, confused, upset, in denial, etc. that a large percentage (not all) of priests are homosexual.
Being agnostic, familiar with catholicism, and looking for an analytical answer i’m wondering if this theory holds water.
Before entering the priesthood many have a moment of enlightenment or a “calling”. They describe it as the moment they realized they would become a priest. Is it possible that young men after going through puberty, realizing that they are homosexual, confuse this with their “calling”? That, being deeply Catholic, and not wanting to tell their families that they have no desire to date females or get married, use priesthood as a scapegoat and a safe haven?
Again, this would not apply to all priests, straight or gay that feel they joined the priesthood out of love of serving god and people. Just a percentage.
Well, your first problem is that while a disturbing number of priests have turned out to be child-molesters, that has squat to do with being homosexual and that most same-sex child molesters are, not, in fact, homosexual.
My argument has nothing to do with the priests accused of child molestation if you re-read my statement. That’s an entirely different topic.
My theory is based on three things; priesthood, calling, homosexuality.
If you equate my mothers confusion and dismay of the gay priests with the molestations you’d be wrong. She’s just old fashioned Catholic who is confused about gay people in general.
Cite please for your statement above and for the difinitive criteria for being a homosexual.
So, are you saying they are pedophiles that have an affinity for males? Or perhaps the social structure of the church gives them better access to young boys versus girls?
Notice that I am not making any judgements about which is the best choice. But I can understand why a fair number of gay Catholics end up as priests, monks, and nuns.
Thank you FisherQueen for you intelligent response. Could he also view option (c) as his “calling” because he during his soul-searching he was confused, believed option (c) was the best option, and in turn believe god gave him option (c)?
<< A young man is a devout, faithful Catholic. He comes to realize that he is homosexual. A period of soul-searching follows. >>
Another scenario is that he doesn’t think of himself as homosexual. He doesn’t like dating girls, he doesn’t like being in an intimate situation with girls, he doesn’t even THINK of intimacy with guys because it’s against his deep faith. He interprets his unease around women/intimacy as a “calling” to the priesthood.
Later, perhaps, might come the realization of homosexual orientation. Or perhaps not. Deep faith can blind intelligent people to the obvious.
IMO, Young men who are confused by their sexual orientation try to duck the issue by enlisting in a spiritual celibacy. What they find is that it is tough to hide in a spiritual no-mans land (pun intended). Without normal sexual development into adulthood they never move beyond their childhood perceptions of sex. So, I guess I’m agreeing to part of your premise.
Just a non-medical WAG. Maybe a SWAG. No, it’s a wag, I’ve thought about this for years.
Before I worried about any association or correlation between homosexuality and priestly vocations, I’d have to see some evidence that there actually was some strong correlation between homosexuality and the priesthood.
My current anecdotal experience is that the number of priests who are gay is in roughly the same proportion as the number of men who are gay in the general population. I have, for example, known three men who left the priesthood because they could not reconcile their homosexual orientation with Catholic doctrine. On the other hand, I know several dozen men who left the priesthood to marry women. I also know a very small number of priests who have chosen to be celibate-while-gay and remain in the priesthood, but they are much fewer in number than the number of celibate-while-straight men whom I know in the priesthood.
Are there actual numbers (based on real and reputable studies) that indicate that the percentage of priests who are gay is significantly higher than the percentage of gay men in the general population? Without such data, any further speculation regarding motivation has no basis in reality.
My admittedly anecdotal experience is not unlike TomnDeb’s. I’ve known a number of gay priests. I don’t believe, based on knowing them and in some cases discussing this very issue with them, that their sexual orientation had anything to do with their desire to be priests, and their experience of a “calling” certainly wasn’t their way of ducking the issue of homosexuality.
I have no idea what the percentage of homosexuals in the priesthood is compared to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. My personal experience is that it’s slightly higher in the priesthood, but that can hardly be said to prove anything one way or the other.
There’s no reason in the world why a gay man would be an inferior priest. I don’t think this, and I don’t believe the Church does either. And a gay man is no more likely to break his vow of celibacy than a straight man. Sexual temptation is sexual temptation, whether one is gay or straight.
Finally, without saying anyone in this thread has claimed this, I worry about the feeling out there amongst too many people that gay priests are more likely to be a threat to children. Ain’t so. Not at all.
Vicars of priests and seminary administrators who have been around awhile speak among themselves of the disproportionate number of gay men that populate our seminaries and presbyterates. **They know that a proportionate number of gay priests and seminarians would fall between 5 and 10 percent. ** The extent of the estimated disproportion, naturally enough, will vary depending on general perceptions, personal experiences, and the frequency of first-hand encounters with self-acknowledged gay priests.
The general perceptions, in turn, are often shaped by various studies and surveys which attempt to measure the percentage of priests who are gay. **An NBC report on celibacy and the clergy found that “any where from 23 percent to 58 percent” of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. ** Other studies find that approximately half of American priests and seminarians are homosexually oriented. **Sociologist James G. Wolf in his book Gay Priests concluded that 48.5 percent of priests and 55.1 percent of seminarians were gay. ** The percentage appears to be highest among priests under forty years of age.
Well then, could you please provide a cite concerning the “large percentage (not all) of priests [that] are homosexual.” I apparently missed the press release.
More access than anything. The characteristics usually listed as attractive by a pedophile are feminine in nature (thus the selection of pre-pubescent boys). The cite listed above covers this in good detail.
No, I didn’t look at the side column links. I was referring to the main page that came up, that didn’t strike me as being inflated or incorrect. But hey, I’m agnostic and have no personal interest in who’s doin’ who anyway. I was looking for a statistic as a starting point for the debate here. If you have a better one, throw down.
But, to respond to the quotes you posted:
Originally Posted by Trosch.org
Anyone who knowingly or through indifference
votes irresponsibly is not a practicing believer.
Only practicing believers are admitted into Heaven.
Well, yeah…I believe most religions operate this way. Folks might not like it, but these are a rules-driven organizations and they want everyone to play by the book. To encourage any other behavior would be against their core beliefs. I also think most believers bend the rules to suit their lives in the 21st century.
Originally Posted by Trosch.org
Civil leaders have responsibility for exercising authority in temporal affairs in association with religious leaders and in accordance with God’s revealed word. No one, even a reigning pope, ever has the authority to terminate, diminish, change direction, or otherwise oppose God’s word.
Hey, I never said it was right, but damnit, YES! Many church leaders believe that their religious beliefs should be law for everyone. There’s a new battle between church and state nearly every week. We humanists have a long, hard fight ahead of us.
With some limitations Catholic priests
have always had the moral right
to marry and remain active as
Catholic priests in the Latin Rite.
I’ve heard of this before. Maybe even here on the Dope.
It is highly likely that most and possibly all of the above women have practiced birth control. Standard forms of birth control often result in abortion (the murder of an innocent person, a victim of crime warranting eternal damnation for those who do not repent). Feminists commonly approve of and even practice surgical abortion. Both alcoholism and lesbianism are associated with having had an abortion.
I didn’t read the exact text where this was picked up from. Obviously, they’re wrong (but it wouldn’t be the first time a religious organization made a ridiculous statement, now…would it?)
I offered the examples to demonstrate that this guy has an agenda, gets at least some basic facts wrong, and that his statistics should be taken with (at least) a grain of salt. On what basis did they strike you as reasonable? There’s no mention of methodology or criteria and most of the evidence that I’ve seen is anecdotal at best (“Everyone knows”, “It was just accepted”, “When I was in seminary”). The primary source (Cozzens’ book) uses Freud and Jueng to analyze the priesthood and appears to have mixed support at best.
The general consensus on somewhat less rabid websites seems to be that no one really knows. Estimates range from 10% to 58% and almost all agree that the percentage is higher among seminary students than priests. One site makes the observation that the percentage may be so high because 20,000 priests in the US alone have left the Church to get married (heterosexually) and that this is inflating the percentages since gays don’t have that option.
James Wolf wrote the other quoted book (Gay Priests) in 1989, yet the facts are presented as current (or at least not dated). The parts of the book dealing with gay priests were based on a survey of 101 gay priests and the percentages given are listed as estimates.
Again, it was posted as a starting point. I don’t really care how many homosexuals are in the priesthood. If anyone has other statistics that either agree or disagree with these, now would be the time to jump in, as the ones I’ve posted are at least somewhat flawed.
Sounds good to me. I actually don’t have statistics (as I said, all estimates that I saw were just that, no methodology listed) and, oddly enough, the OP holds little interest for me. I thought there was a “pedophile = homosexual” thing going on and jumped in to refute it. The OP has since stated that that wasn’t his (?) intent so adeiu.
01010000, I’ll check back from time to time in case you have any follow-up questions.
I’ve seen numbers relatively close to Kalhoun’s from sites both praising and deploring the results, as well as one that showed every evidence of attempting to be objective.
Remember that we are talking orientation here, not sexual practice. (Apparently some gay priests are getting it on with each other, from the “deploring the results” sites’ comments – but that’s a whole different can of worms that it will do this thread no good to open.) Since Catholic priests are, with extremely rare exceptions, under a vow of celibacy, the point of orientation is probably the key issue.
Vatican materials have condemned the acceptance of candidates for the priesthood who are homosexual in orientation because of their stance that persons who are homosexual are “seriously disordered.” (This is said purely as reportage; perhaps some of our experts on Catholicism can find the appropriate documentation.) I am not sure I follow the logic here, though one position I’ve seen taken is that “sex within marriage is in accordance with God’s plan, and the priest who willingly gives this up to become a priest is sacrificing one good for another, but gay sex is sinful, so the man who gives this up is doing no more than eschewing sin, and making no sacrifice as the straight man is.” Another argument is that priests, celibate themselves, are called on in their pastoral function to counsel married persons, and can only do so effectively if they can empathize with the married persons’ problems, “which a gay priest cannot do.”
It’s important to distinguish the question of whether/how many Catholic priests are of gay orientation, and what the moral questions involved there may be, from the pedophile scandal, for reasons that I presume I don’t need to go into on this board. Apparently they are two separate issues being examined quite separately.
All this makes me quite happy that I’m an Episcopalian.