I’m putting this in General Questions rather than Great Debates because I’m hoping for hard data rather than philosophical arguments. I’ve submitted this question to Cecil a couple of times, but without result. So:
For decades now, it’s been stated as fact that chimpanzees, such as Washoe, gorillas such as Koko, and also orangutans, are capable of learning and using American Sign Language. Yet I’ve been unable to find really objective data proving the question one way or the other.
If it’s really true that humans are having intelligent conversations with non-human primates, that’s incredibly significant – but is it true? Almost all the information I’ve been able to find comes from the people whose careers are based on the assertion that they’re really getting intelligent, rational sentences in the form of sign language from their simian subjects. I’d like to know what peer-reviewed studies there have been to try and answer:
Are the apes’ gestures really specific signs, or are they just being interpreted that way?
If the apes are using specific signs, how much understanding do they have of their meaning?
Are they really constructing sentences, or are their human partners putting their own interpretation on what might be a random series of signs?
I don’t have an agenda one way or the other here; it’s just irritating to hear something so important talked about so vaguely for all these years; I’d like to know what hard facts are available.
i do not know what you call vaguely. I saw a documentary which was pretty clear in what the primates can and cannot do. The National Zoo in Washington Dc has some ongoing program you can observe when classes are “in session”.
I am not an expert but I did see some pretty good communication back and forth but that does not require constructing gramatically correct sentences.
Opinions are mixed. There seem to be stories that illustrate some genuine creative language use by gorillas. On the other hand, critics say that gorillas mostly just string a bunch of symbols together (hungry hungry banana give banana hungry me fruit banana give) and that it’s a stretch to call that “language”.
Maybe exposure to AOL corrupted Koko. The sentence above could pass for acceptable grammar on some IRC channels.
You’ve asked deep and controversial quesion. There have been entire conventions devoted to the question of whether “animal cognition” is real or not. People on both sides of the issue get passionate about it. Martin Gardner and a lot of CSICOP folks are, as you’d expect, pretty skeptical about it. (Gardner’s a hilosopher by training – it’s not an off-topic question for him). An amateur magician, he points to the "Clever Hans effect, where he trainer unconsciusly cues in his subject with the “right” answers, and other parallels where people equally unconsciously bias their interpretations of signs and other commnications. The Koko folks are as insistent that communications show originality that cannot be explained on the basis of cued responses and misinterpretation. Me, I don’t know. I’m certainly not up on this field. But something I think Noam Chomsky once said appals to the skeptic in me: “It’s as likely that apes are waiting to learn sign language to communicate as that there’s an island of flightless birds waiting for human to teach them to fly.”
A good chunk of the human brain is devoted to language processing. Chimps simply do not have the cognitive hardware to deal with abstract symbology as easily as humans do. You can teach chimps rudimentary abstract associations, but anything beyond this is questionable and even a human child’s inherent ability to acquire and use language is leagues beyond a chimps.
Virtually all the studies that I have heard about that have claimed sophisticated language use by chimps have been subject to over intepretation of any gesture to be what the observer is looking for or have had other methodological problems. Chimps are well adapted for their ecological niche and are human like in many respects but they are not hairy little people. Human beings are truly unique creatures and language is what makes them unique.
Hell, I’ve always thought that, even if they can’t get the concept of “grammar” down, even knowing to use the signs for “banana” and “hungry” instead of the signs for “paint” or “elevator” is pretty impressive for a non-human.
Maybe, but then again you can get mice to push buttons to receive cheese in experiments, dogs will beg for treats, birds will sing for seed, etc. That doesn’t mean that they’re displaying high level communication skills. Just because an ape manages to get a couple of words right doesn’t mean they’re all that much smarter than the dog who begs for a bone.
>> Just because an ape manages to get a couple of words right doesn’t mean they’re all that much smarter than the dog who begs for a bone.
I bet you have not seen the experiments. The animals do much more than manage to get a couple of words right. They manage abstract concepts like color, shape, etc. I got the impression that a chimp worked at the communication level of a three year old child. I can’t see why people have a problem with that one way or the other.
About two years ago, I came home from work one day. My wife was gone. When I entered the house, my dog, (Suzy, wire haired terrier )met me at the door. She was jumping around like she wanted something. I asked her, “Do you want to go out side?” She stopped jumping arond, and sat down, and barked at me. I asked her, “Well what do you want then?” With that, she turned around and dashed into the bathroom. This was odd, as she usualy avoids the bathroom, as that is where she takes baths, and she hates baths. I followed. As I entered, I found her standing in the tub. “What are you doing?” I asked. She looked at me, then pointed her nose at the spigot, then looked at me and barked again. I asked her, “Are you thirsty?” She barked again.
I went to the kitchen and found that she was out of water. When I gave her some, she was satisfied, and went to go lie down.
Go ahead. Tell me dogs cannot communicate.
I think current research focuses on having primates use symbols (ie, through flash cards) to express language, rather than sign language. Although it is clear that a gorilla obviously cannot make the same sounds as a human, it also is not clear whether sign language is an adequate substitution for expression. I think the key to this is splitting the question of communication into two variables – whether the primate can comprehend language, and if so, how can one express it? I think to a certain degree, primates have some understanding of simple language structure. Sorry I don’t have anything to back this up, but this is where I heard the new research is heading.
I read an article a couple years ago that made a pretty convincing case that NHP language was the result of wishful thinking, over-interpretation, etc.
At the same time, it seems to me that there may very well be a few NHP’s out there who would have shockingly good language skills if taught, in the same way that there are a few humans that are, intellectually, light-years ahead of other people in some narrow area.
If so, I would like to ask Koko about how the universe got started & her opinions on male apes…I don’t think she would understand these things. Koko reminds me of born Deaf people who are taught to speak, often it’s just what I call a ‘parrot’ imitation.