People change. Susan essentially grew up and lived her life in another world. Althugh it’s not specifically mentioned, she probably married, had children, and so on - and I can hardly think of a better reason to stay home. Although you complain about the intentionalist fallacy (whether it’s a fallacy or not), you’re also reading way too much into it. She wasn’t banished or forced out. Susan just didn’t come back.
You can read that in a lot of ways: metaphorically or literally or whatever. It is what it is and I don’t think it was intended to mean much beyond that.
What she said.
I struggle to synthesize Queen Susan the Gentle with someone who only cares about nylons and lipsticks. Susan truly cared about all her siblings and wanted to help them any way she could. (in my head, I liken her to Meg March, but that’s my head for you!)
I hold to my premise that Lewis just didn’t know what to do with her character. He knew nothing of adult women’s sexuality or spirituality as a child–he had no role model. Mrs Moore (I think that was her name) helped him immeasurably in his life, but I think he found himself at a loss and found a handy categorization to put Susan in. It rings false with the rest of the books–not that I am an expert in any way. There is no shame in living in the real world and being a mother and a social person–Lewis knew that and agreed with that. So I am left puzzled as to why he characterized Susan in this way–sure, she can come back, but the way does not seem welcome.
I already stated that I don’t think Lewis was thinking of much when he wrote about Susan in The Last Battle. My problem with the story is not Susan’s banishment per se, but how it’s portrayed - Lewis doesn’t say anything about marriage or children or other responsibilities. It’s implied that she turned her back on Narnia because she grew up to be a shallow person. Again, I don’t think Lewis had anything specific in mind when he did this - like rigs said, he probably just didn’t know what to do with her character. Or perhaps he was thinking in terms of allegory, although I think that does him and the entire series a bit of an injustice. Or maybe his casual conclusion for Susan speaks volumes of his attitude towards female sexuality (although I suppose close Freudian readings are a bit out of fashion nowadays). I dunno.
This conversation has gotten a bit out of hand. All I’m saying is that I, personally, never liked Susan’s ending in the Narnia books.
[spoiler]It’s pretty much straightforward. Susan doesn’t die at the end of the books. Rather, she made a choice not to try and return to Narnia (and inadvertantly avoided a literal trainwreck. While the character was described, of course, as being interested in nylons and makeup - I interpret this as Lucy’s view of the issue, which is not always clear or correct despite her usual grace and innocence. Susan was looking to marry and settle down. Note that the other Pevensies didn’t marry. I think that the movie got this exactly right. She couldn’t live in two worlds. She was disregarding Narnia not because she really believed it was play, but because she couldn’t deal with the reality and still live her life.
But her story is not over. Much as we never see the end of many of the other characters, Susan isn’t dead and has probably many years ahead of her.[/spoiler]
You mean you missed the part where he sneaks away from his siblings and the Beavers and goes off to Jadis and says “Please, your evil overladyship, I’ve brought them as near as I can, and all you have to do now is go and lock them up”? :dubious:
(another post)
I know. It’s such a fag when people insist on you acquainting with the facts, isn’t it? It wastes time better spent articulating your opinions. Well, you’ve had your answer: it wasn’t that she wasn’t allowed, it’s just that she had chosen to dismiss it all as a childhood game.
(and another)
Well, he chose a guy to commit the act that caused Aslan to sacrifice himself in TLTW&TW, and he chose a guy to wake Jadis and indirectly bring her to Narnia in the first place (in The Magician’s Nephew) and the bad guy/bad girl ratio throughout the books probably paints the male as the worse of the two, so I don’t think you’ve too much to cry foul over here.
smilingbandit - Don’t forget it’s not just Lucy’s view, but also the consensus view of the rest of the Friends, including Polly who is certainly a mature enough woman to be entitled to an opinion. And it seems that she didn’t want to settle down - she had made haste to get to the stage of lipstick and nylons and invitations, and didn’t want to move on from there.
Yes, I had forgotten that. I remember that Turkish delight was not worth what happened, but didn’t recall the details of how the White Witch got the kids. I read these as a child and once out loud to my kids. When I read them as a child, and TLTW&TW was my favorite, I never dwelt on what Edmund did. I was much more interested in the characters of Peter, Susan and Lucy. When I read it aloud to my kids, I was more interested in Edmund–not his “sin”, but his journey after that.
And dismissing it as a childhood game squares with the Susan in the rest of the books? You don’t see this as a sharp, sudden deviation for her? I have to look askance at her “allowance”, couched as it is and with her integrity called into question. Can Susan truly be that shallow? :dubious:
Who’s crying foul? It was merely a comment. Susan in some ways echoes Eve, IMO, and Eve has forever been maligned. Of course guys did bad things, as did dwarves and god knows what else. That wasn’t the point. All the sons of Adam got to go back to Narnia, AFAICT, Susan is the lone one where her destiny is obscure. I’m asking why is that? Edmund “sinned” greatly, but was taken back into the fold. Susan is passed over (however obliquely) for wanting nylons and lipstick? Was she supposed to forsake the real world and all it’s trappings for Narnia? Was Peter never tempted by a zoot suit or cigars? You seem to think I’m trying to paint Lewis as a misogynist which is not the case at all. I am just musing about the character arcs and find Susan to be askew.
But since we never actually hear from Susan, I take this as hearsay. I stand by my original position and that is that Lewis just didn’t know how to handle Susan and so “copped out”. YMMV.
I think Lewis was trying to make a point about worldly materialism and how superficial and shallow it is in the face of true faith / Christianity / whatever. If you line up the Pevensies to their allegorical equivalents, Edmund plays the role of Judas, Peter plays the role of… well, Peter, Lucy possibly takes the role of John, and Susan has the element of Thomas in her character–the skeptic who doubted it was Jesus on his return. If I remember correctly, she’s the one who most strongly disbelieves Lucy when Aslan makes his return in Prince Caspian, and actually has a moment with Aslan along the lines of “I won’t doubt you again”.
So I don’t think it’s completely out of character for her to ultimately reject Narnia for the real world. I also don’t think Lewis ever intended to banish her–if the Pevensies’ parents can show up in heaven in the last few scenes (weren’t they the ones on the hilltop waving to Lucy?), I’m sure Susan can make it, too.
I don’t see Edmund as Judas. Was Judas forgiven? I thought he was hanged and forgotten about.
I never thought of the kids as disciples, just as kids. Obviously, Lewis did what he wanted with Susan, I’m just not happy with it. Maybe I should just write some fanfic and be done.
I think Jesus forgave him because Judas has to do what he did in order for JC to complete his mission. But Jesus is a forgiving kind of guy anyway.
Or I could just be getting the bible mixed up with Jesus Christ Superstar again.
The Bible says nothing about Jesus acknowledging that Judas did what he did in order for Jesus to complete his mission. In fact, the gospels make it pretty clear that this was not the intent of Judas. Judas acted with the vilest of intentions. The fact that Jesus used his betrayal for a higher purpose does nothing to exonerate Judas or to mitigate his intentions.
Judas was grieved by what he did and went and hanged himself, but Jesus did say that, though it was necessary for him to be betrayed, it was bad for the betrayer to do it. (And this is not to contradict JThunder, for Judas did it for no noble purpose but for his own selfish ends. Think of him as Darth Vader striking Obi-Wan Kenobi down, only for Ben to become more powerful than he can understand.)
Of course - the obvious thing to do, if one has the time and the inclination. My take on it had Susan resisting the lesson for the next sixty years, but she repented in the end. I’m just an old softie really.
But didn’t Judas repent? That got to count for something. I cannot liken Edmund to Judas even more, now that I know this. (but frankly, without Judas, ya got no Jesus…) Maybe we should thank god for sin and bad guys?
Ok, now I’m thinking about this too much.
Probably. Generally speaking though, Judas probably didn’t repent. He killed himself and amost certainly avoided actual repentance. He was ashamed, but not penitent. There is a difference.
Ok, but I’m too much of a softie to hurl Judas into hell. Maybe god did–dunno. Can’t see Edmund or Susan there, either. (even if Edmund borrows Susan’s lipstick and nylons!)
One last point–whoever upthread said (as a way of explaining Susan’s future) that people change. Yes, but if so, then she’s the only one who did in that way. I find that odd.
And I think I’ve mindfucked this topic long enough. carry on!
I have to agree that Judas did not repent. He showed grief and remorse, but that’s not the same thing. There was certainly no indication of him attempting restitution or reconciliation the way Edmund did.
There’s an old folk-tale that has Judas, on account of his remorse, let out of Hell for one day a year to go sit on a cold rock in a storm-tossed sea, which at least is a relief from the Inferno. (Mind you, Dante has him in the place of honour as traitor-in-chief, where “place of honour” means “eternally chomped in the colossal jaws of Satan at the centre of the ice-bound Ninth Circle of Hell”.) It’s referenced in a Kipling poem.
All I’m saying is that I, personally, never liked Susan’s ending in the Narnia books.
Well, you’ve had your answer: it wasn’t that she wasn’t allowed, it’s just that she had chosen to dismiss it all as a childhood game.
