Pro bono bullshit

The BBQ Pit
1541

If a profession’s (lawyers) tradition and ethics dictate that certain activities (Pro Bono) should be undertaken by that profession’s members- and such an expectation has been made abundantly clear from the start- then not doing so is unethical.

Why?

The thing is, I haven’t spent the last 30-odd pages arguing in favour of State ownership of all property, the distribution of wealth from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs, glorifying the deeds and words of Che Guevara, Stalin, Marx, and Chairman Mao, sung The Internationale, decrying the bourgeoise nature of [whatever], or calling upon the workers to rise up and throw off the chains of oppression they bear at the hands of the [del]Imperialist Running Dogs[/del] corporate fat-cats and moneyed classes.

Mr. Rover, however, has spent the last 30 pages loudly proclaiming his distaste and dislike for one of his chosen profession’s oldest principles, the reasons why he feels that anyone who needs Pro Bono isn’t worthy of receiving it, why he feels The Rules Don’t Apply To Him, and twisting the definitions of commonly accepted words to suit that worldview, and ignoring anyone who makes points or arguments that he doesn’t like or can’t refute.

There is, in short, far more evidence in this thread for Mr. Rover being a sociopath than there is for me being a Communist.

Being busy doesn’t make one unethical. I don’t think anyone has argued that. Being lazy definitely makes one unethical in a professional field like law, and “not caring” is just as bad, especially in a professional context.

Yes, it does. Religious Moral requirements (Think “The Ten Commandments”) are intended for the individual’s benefit (making them a better person) as well as that of society as a whole. And in the not-too-distant past (and even the present, in some places), failing to live up to them can have dire consequences.

Try being an average Muslim who gets caught drinking alcohol in somewhere like Saudi Arabia and see what happens. You’ll find that Moral requirments quite frequently are strong-armed from above.

1542

I’m sorry, I just don’t agree with your views but do respect them.

The primary objective of religious or any moral principle is selflessness, doing for others not yourself. If you do something primarily to make yourself a better person, that is self service not to be confused with morality. Thats why there were and are penalties, because they affect the society, however that’s strong-arming and it doesn’t work.

Muslims do drink in SA, but just avoid getting caught.

1543

By the way I’m in no way against pro-bono work. I wish more lawyers would take the time to do it.

I myself could not afford a lawyer for anything major if need arose and would be most thankful to find a low priced / free legal help.

1544

Yeah, except that I haven’t done any of that.

Look Martini, you need to grow up and get over your belief in the reality of a moral obligation. You think you can tap into the Great Unconscious or whatever and determine what is moral and what is not, and if anyone disagrees with you, you feel justified in condemning them and calling them a sociopath.

But there is no Great Unconscious. The Moral Realm doesn’t exist. When you say “you have a moral obligation to do that,” you are just saying “I would prefer that you do that.” That’s it.

Also, there’s no santa claus either. Or easter bunny.

1545

Yes, you have.

At no point have I ever mentioned The Great Unconscious or the Moral Realm. And I’m not the one who started calling you a sociopath, BTW.

I’m well aware that there are plenty of Muslims who drink, even in Muslim countries. That wasn’t what I said. I said “Try being an average Muslim who gets caught drinking alcohol in somewhere like Saudi Arabia and see what happens.”

So why the smeg are you in here defending a lawyer who has almost explicitly said that you’re not worthy of receiving Pro Bono help by virtue of the fact you can’t afford to pay a lawyer and must therefore be one of the lower orders??? :confused:

1546

Nuh-uh. Your turn.

So what do you mean exactly by this:

It sure sounds like you think that saying something is unethical means more than just “I don’t like it.”

Again, I’ve never said anything like that.

1547

The penalty stops or reduces the act but not the desire to do so and desire usually finds a loophole. Hence its better for morality to originate from within instead of imposed. That’s why we should not coerce people to be moral, just let them be.

I’m defending his decision not to do pro-bono work if he does not feel like it. Its for society’s own benefit not to compel people to do what it thinks of as good. Let the people who really want to do it, do it.

1548

How about you address some of the unanswered questions that have been raised; namely my proposition that were you to actually openly declare to your bar association your views on this matter, the least you’d expect is a Formal Letter to the effect of “You’re Wrong” and it would only get worse from there? Or the assertation that the time you’ve spent involved in this thread would equate to a significant amount of your firm’s Pro Bono time goal requirements? Or any of the other very valid points that others have raised which you’ve conveniently ignored or weaselled around?

I am. But “Great Unconscious” has nothing to do with it. “Not being a dick for the sheer hell of it” does, though.

Oh, for smeg’s sake. You’re not “Winning” this argument, RR. Seriously. 30-odd pages of discussion and one person agrees with you in any substantial way.

1549

And that one “person” first posted in this thread (on 9/20 2010), * has the vast majority of his 31 posts (to this point) in this thread, and may or may not be RR hisself. My money is on “may”.

  • his second, actually. His first post was made two minutes earlier. And I’m not even raising stylistic similarities between his prose style and RR’s.
1550

These are all stupid-ass points. My bar association would not say “you’re wrong” to me because I’m not wrong. It very clearly is the case that a lawyer does not have an actual obligation to do pro bono. The time I’ve spent here has nothing to do with anything. I can’t do pro bono work in fits and starts of 4 minutes here and there throughout the day like I can participate in this thread. And there are other reasons that I don’t want to do pro bono besides the time commitment, as I’ve discussed above. I’ve answered everything else that a reasonable person could call “very valid.”

Congratulations, you’re an idiot. There’s no tooth fairy either, you know. And saying “that’s unethical” just means “I don’t like it.” That’s it. There’s no absolute standard for determining whether or not something’s unethical.

1551

There is no penalty if he does not do pro bono, but he does have a responsibility to pro bono.

He is goverened by the following Illinois Rules of Professional Conduct: “[6A] It is also the responsibility of those licensed as officers of the court to use their training, experience, and skills to provide services in the public interest for which compensation may not be available.” http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926978&postcount=534

If you still are of the opinion that “He does not have that responsibility,” then please explain your opinion in light of 6A.

1552

Again, Muffin, you refuse to define what you mean by “to have a responsibility.” The preamble to the rules (not the rules themselves) very clearly does say that a lawyer has a responsibility to do pro bono. But the rules also very clearly do not say that a lawyer must do pro bono in order to comply with the rules or remain being a lawyer.

So, when you say “RR has a responsibility to do pro bono,” that is a false statement if by “responsibility” you mean “an actual obligation” (as I’ve defined that term in this thread). If by “RR has a responsiblity to do pro bono” you only mean that I have a moral obligation, then you can say that if you want to, but that doesn’t mean I have an actual obligation.

These are simple concepts, people. But instead of discussing the actual concepts, many of you choose to keep repeating your little pet words (requirement, obligation, responsibility, duty) and then accusing me of weaseling. I’m trying to fight your ignorance (it keeps fighting back). If you want to call that “weaseling,” then so be it.

1553

" An individual lawyer’s efforts in these areas is evidence of the lawyer’s good character and fitness to practice law, and the efforts of the bar as a whole are essential to the bar’s maintenance of professionalism. "

Above is what I disagree with. Spending a little bit of time or money doing pro-bono does not make you of good character, nor make the bar professional.

It only makes it appear so on paper, and that’s what’s asked here. Do some pro-bono, report it, we all look good. To me this is fake charity, not worth doing.
Sure I can agree that as defined by section 6A RR is not being responsible, but its a very narrow viewpoint. Hardly enough to make someone unethical or immoral.

1554

Nonsense. Proof is found in the eulogy of our late Prime Minister / Attorney General, who brought our Constitution home to us and gave us our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (The Constitution Act, 1982, being Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.), 1982, c. 11.) Santa Claus is the epitome of pro bono. That you do not receive any presents from Santa Claus is simply a result of the “naughty or nice” rule being applied to you in light of your not providing pro bono services.

1555

Which is it, chum? :dubious: Is pro bono worth doing only if it isn’t expected of you? Do you do a shit job, of no value to the client, if anyone else notices you doing it at all, is that it?

Even **Randy **only compares the expectation to the United Way, not to Communism. :smiley:

1556

Because it seems you are special, I’ll restate my opinion in even simpler words:

Pro bono should only be done if one wants to do it.

1557

I’ll be as obvious as possible to you, then, sparky…

Even if your socially and morally bankrupt Randian world, you have to realize that if you don’t aspire to do pro bono work, don’t voluntarily enter a profession in a state which involves swearing an oath that requires you to aspire to do pro bono work…

It’s an ethical obligation, but one which is accepted voluntarily.

1558

Villa, not sure why you posted that, as it’s completely irrelevant. I didn’t swear an oath that requires me to aspire to do pro bono work.

1559

Pro bono publico, I suggest this thread be put out of its misery. It’s flailing, clearly suffering, and obviously isn’t going to get any better, but won’t quite die on its own.

Maybe there are still fans enjoying “Nuh-Uh Times Infinity” by Randy and the Rovers in heavy rotation, but for me it’s gone a bit stale.

1560

But he’s SUCH an asshole!!