Pro-gun Democrat

It seems to me (and some others) that Democrats are ducking the gun issue. Regardless of what your position is, legal gun owners are a force to be reckoned with. Even Bill Clinton admitted that it was a gun issue that gave Republicans control of Congress in 1994.

I believe that a Democratic candidate for President who was pro-gun (and by pro-gun I mean someone who was truely “pro-gun”. One who believed the 2nd Amendment was an individual right, opposed Brady AND the “Assault Weapon” ban, had no problems with handguns, right -to-carry, etc.) even if they were very, very liberal on other issues, could easily kick the living shit out of Bush in 2004. I’m talking 70-30%.
What do you think?

I think there are probably a lot of one issue voters in regards to gun control - Bush is no friend of gun owners, and as such, a truly pro-gun democrat would probably garner a lot of support.

Of course, pro-gun nowadays means “not enacting too many new bans”.

I’ve been screaming this for over 4 years now. The only response I’ve gotten is that he’s “the better of 2 evils”, which is like trying to decide what is better : a kick in the throat, or a kick in the nuts!:mad:

Unfortuately your right. There are alot of dumb asses out there that consider Howard Dean “pro-gun”.:rolleyes:
[Fixed quote tags. – MEB]

Yes, you are right. Democrats usually lose because they alienate the blue collar workers, union workers, rural people, low income people, etc. because of gun control, who used to be solidly democrat.

USA today had a story a couple of weeks ago, saying that the democrats are avoiding the issue, because they felt it cost Gore to lose Tennessee, and other states. If Gore was pro-gun, he would be president.

Bush is extremely vulnerable because of the mess of the economy. If they dont alienate gun owners(50% of americans), they should win this election. If you could find pro-gun democrats, who were for real, the republicans would never win again.

If I could find a truly pro-gun, pro-choice candidate who didn’t think that 40% of my income was a fair tax rate, I’d vote for that person in a New York minute.

Unfortunately such a candidate has yet to exist, from what I’ve seen.

Too many of them think that ‘pro-gun’ means ‘common sense gun laws like the assault weapons ban’ which are neither common sense nor worthwhile.

I am not a Democrat.

However, in the 2000 Election, I was decidedly stuck with trying to figure out which of the two ‘real’ candidates was the lesser of two evils. In the end, I picked bush over gore because of gore’s fairly extreme stance on gun-control.

I don’t even own a gun and I find it hard to trust anyone in power trying to take them away.

After the last three years, I would DEFINATELY vote for a legitimately ‘pro-gun’ democrat.

Glad to hear from some progun Democrats! If the party would listen to you, I might consider becoming a Democrat myself. I’ve been for years so disgusted with both Republicans and Democrats that I affiliate with neither party and vote merely on whatever candidate seems to best support my own views. At the risk of sounding radical, however, I think a lot of people need to wake up to the fact that democracy will not long survive in this country without an armed public.

Well, Dean has said:

So, maybe “pro-gun” is an exaggeration, but he’s not “anti-gun”.

Having grown up with guns in the house and in a family that hunted, I always considered guns to be tools. It never occurred to me that people would be against them until I became politically aware.

Growing up as I did, guns have no connotation for me. They’re neither good nor bad. I own a shotgun for bear protection, but I don’t hunt. Am I a pro-gun liberal? Beats me. Where I live and for what I do outdoors, they’re a necessity.

For me, it’s a matter of degree. Since the gun is a tool, I don’t need an AK-47 or an anti-tank missle, and I don’t believe most of the population requires these things. I believe there should be restrictions on the types of weapons available to the general public, but a complete ban is just foolish and unenforceable.

The conservatives I work with are always trying to get me stirred up about gun control, but it’s a non-starter for me. Maybe I should run for office…

Perhaps, but terms such as “gun show loophole” serve as a red flag for me.

Especially because there is no such thing as a ‘gun show loophole’.

All FFL dealers are required to run all of their potential customers through NICS at a gun show just like they are at their own places of business.

Private citizens selling long guns to each other are not required to run NICS checks outside of gun shows, nor in them.

If someone uses the term ‘gun show loophole’, they are not pro-gun.

I think people should be allowed to own all the guns they want. I simply would like to see a licensing/registration/training system in place, analogous to drivers’ licenses.

Does that make me “pro gun” or not? Seems to me that the NRA’s definition of “pro gun” is total and unfettered access to firearms, without restrictions, which strikes me as a bit reckless.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the “gun show loophole?”

What’s entailed in the NICS check? Does it keep weapons from getting into the hands of those who can’t legally have them?

Finally, I’d like to know where those that consider themselves pro-gun consider to be a truly pro-gun position. Should I be allowed to own an M-16? If I have a fellony? How about a LAW?

I’m not trying to bait, I just want to know where my position is relative to others. I know I’m too liberable about gun ownership for the liberals, but it sounds like I may not fall in with the pro-gun crowd either.

rjung, you’re not being clear when you talk about a registration, training, and licensing system.

Do you mean a system where a license to carry a gun could not be denied except for cause (like automobiles), or do you mean a system where a license to carry a gun is only available at the whim of the issuing authorities like those in NY, NJ, CA, MA, MD, and others? Do you mean a system where you’re not required to have a license to own guns and/or keep them on your own property (like cars), or one where you need such a license like NY, MA, MD, IL and others? Do you mean a system with one-time registration where you report your new gun (like cars), or one in which you have to renew the registration constantly (NY, NJ) and be guilty of a felony if the paperwork takes longer than its supposed to, or perhaps one with registration where the registration forms haven’t been available for close to 20 years (Chicago)? Do you mean a system where any actual training is acceptable, or one in which only certain approved classes are allowed, all of which happen to be filled up every time they’re offered (MI before the new law) or other “Literacy Test” type tricks?

The problem with being ‘pro-license and registration’ is that such systems in practice are overwhelmingly anti-gun, as are most “reasonable” schemes put forth in Congress. Thus, if you support pretty much any of the ‘licensing and registration’ schemes that have been proposed or implemented, you’re definately in the anti-rights camp whether you realize it or not. Sure, it seems like a good idea to require that voters be able to read - but in practice “literacy tests” were just a cover, not really about a literate electorate at all.

And, of course, one might ask just why you support these laws - do you have any evidence that registration, for example, provides any benefit to society for the huge costs it incurs (see Canada’s gun registry, $1 billion so far)? Is there any evidence that licensing actually reduces the number of guns used in crime or other benefit to offset the monetary and personal costs that jumping through licensing hoops requires?

And as far as your complaints about the NRA, they are the group that pushed for instant background checks (instead of waiting periods with no check like the Brady Bunch wanted) and that is pressing for Project Exile, the program to actually arrest criminals for committing crimes with guns (it’s pretty obvious that imposing a complex network of restrictions but not forcing criminals to serve time for breaking the laws serves only to hinder law-abiding gun owners). It’s not as if the US prior to 1968 was awash in crime compared to today, despite the almost complete lack of Federal (and most state) restrictions on guns - crime rates went on a steady rise for 25 years after the GCA was implemented.

The “loophole” is a claim that antigunners like to use to make it sound like gunshows are a bazaar where anyone, even felons can buy and sell without any restrictions. As mentioned earlier, this is not the case. If one buys a gun from a licensed dealer, they will need to pass a Federal NICS check whether they buy the gun at a store, the dealer’s home or from his/her table at a gun show.

If they choose to buy from a private seller, no federal NICS check need be performed whether they buy the gun at the persons home or from his/her table at a gun show. States may have different requirements, but at the Ferderal level, nothing else needs to be done. No loophole, just the law.

The NICS check is a background check of sorts that is supposed to be “instantaneous” and accurate. If you fail the NICS, you are unable to buy a gun if buying from a FFL dealer.

I am about as pro-gun as you’ll find. Yes you have the right to own an M-16 or any other if you are law abiding. Federal law has been written that impedes that right however IMO. No you don’t have the right to own a LAW rocket. The Constitution specifies the right to bear arms. LAW rockets, RPGs, Cannons, Nuclear Bobmbs, etc. are commonly referred to as ordinance not arms.

I appreciate the non-biased question. I think I speak for many pro-gun people that have no room for compromise. It seems that the anti crowd is always shouting for US to make compromises, but they never feel the same regarding their own positions.

Back to the OP… If I could find a pro-gun Democrat in whom I could implicitly trust my gun rights, I would vote for them over a Republican who was wishy-washy with my rights any day.

Well, since you’re asking for particulars, I think a parallel to car ownership is not unreasonable (IMO, natch). You take a test (written and with an instructor) proving you have basic competence in gun ownership and use, and you get a license. Your license is renewed on a periodic basis, and can be revoked if you are deemed to be a reckless user. I haven’t really decided whether individual guns should be registered or not; I realize that guns can be easily stolen/altered so they cannot be traced, which would defeat registration. I guess my bottom line view is simply that you can have guns if you can prove you are a responsible owner.

I dunno about that. I hear it a lot from the NRA, but the argument always strikes me more as “we don’t want any restrictions whatsoever!” rather than an indication of problems with the law. And anyone claiming the government wants to track gun owners so the DEA can send the black helicopters to capture them when the revolution comes gets the :rolleyes: from me. :wink:

If you’re gonna use something dangerous, you should show that you know how to handle it. This philosophy applies to cars, nuclear materials, pyrotechnics, explosives… why not guns?

Right, but that law sets up a bad situation. If I’m a felon or someone who can’t legally own a gun, I can go to a gunshow (which is where most private gun sales occur) and get my hands on one…no background check, no questions, nothing.

I think the phrase that we are saying is “We don’t want any MORE restrictions whatsoever”. By the way, california required regstration of SKS type rifles only to ban them later making criminals out of many. Not a slippery slope… just the truth. Link

I don’t usually use worldnet for quotes, but they had a really nice article about it.

The time for compromise has come and gone. When we compromise, we lose. If an anti issue is taken off the table today it’s almost a guarantee that we’ll see it again.

Pro-gun Democrat here. Hate to say this, but this is one issue I think I can safely leave to the conservatives. I mean hey, the hunters and fishers are willing to entrust my side of the fence with habitat conservation and game management issues, so it works both ways sometimes.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t applaud a Dem candidate who advocates personal ownership (and personal firearm responsibility, for which there are plenty enough laws already), I’m just saying that the way the lines are drawn right now I have some trouble seeing it happen.

(Come to think of it, though, it could be one hell of a “triangulation” issue for, say, a retired Army general to focus upon in an upcoming campaign…)

From my personal point of view there is no way in hell we’re ever going to rid ourselves of the vast arsenal we privately possess–we’ll still have Springfield '03s around in the year 2103, too. And I trust my government less and less every day. I don’t want to sound like a jerk about this, but when the day comes when I need a gun, I think I’ll by-God be able to get one whether The Man tells me I can have it or not.

In that sense, at least, I think some of the intent of the 2nd Amendment shall always remain with us. In the meantime, thanks for fighting the good fight, guys and gals.

Will such a system allow licensed and registered and trained gun owners use their guns willy-nilly in public, analogous to driving?