Pro-lifers: Help me understand the exceptions for rape and incest

The title says it, but let me flesh it out a bit here.

Do you think it’s just a necessary compromise in order to make anti-abortion laws more appealing to those who haven’t thought it their position through, or do you think those really are valid exceptions?

If you think they are valid, do you think abortion is murder, or are you not sure and want to make sure to stay on the side of caution in case it is?

If it’s murder and those exceptions are valid, help me with the incest part first. Most incest is also statutory rape, so would be covered by the rape exception. In those cases where it’s not (two 20-year old siblings or something), what’s the exception for? Prevention of birth defect? What about other birth defects that happen through non-incest sex? Are abortions OK for those?

For rape, is it only when the woman is raped? Are abortions OK for a high school teacher who has sex with her underage student?

Are abortions for the above exceptions OK at any time throughout the pregnancy, or just the first or first two trimesters?

Thanks for helping me think this through.

RS

I hate that the procedure exists except for extreme medical emergencies, it is generally far more harm to women then the baby (due to the mercy of God towards the innocent one effected by the decision of the other person beyond their control, and the effects of karma for the one making the decision ending the others life - IMHO).

Part of the reasoning behind allowing the exception for r&i is that there was presumably no consent of the woman to unite with the man, he forced himself inside her. If it was a normal sexual encounter the woman has given free consent for him to enter her. So there is at least a apparent difference.

You don’t think that there are any “pro-lifers” who post here who are going to answer this bit of sophistry, do you?

Practical matter, very few abortions are performed for rape or incest.

the vast majority of them are performed as birth control, because women picked the wrong partner or were careless with other forms of birth control.

that said, making it illegal is impractical, because they will just happen illegally. Prohibition didn’t work. Gun Control Laws don’t work. The War on Drugs has been an excercise in futility. Prostitutes are easy to find in the 49 states where they are breaking the law.

Incidently, I don’t think the Republicans have any interest in actually overturning Roe v. Wade. If they did, they’ve made 8 of the last 12 appointments to SCOTUS after it was ruled on, and most of those guys have voted to uphold it. I think it’s one of those issues they like to keep out there to keep a certain percentage of the electorate angry and distracted.

Truthfully, most hard core pro-lifers I know don’t even make an exception for rape or incest. Of course, a lot of them believe the world is as cut and dried as the mushrooms they swallow, so take that with a grain of salt.
Honestly, I DO think these exceptions are made to make the laws, as well as the concepts and people behind them, seem more appealing and more worldly, but they do make sense in other ways. When you give people the impression of compromise, they tend to bend their own codes a bit.
The pro-lifers I know (I happen to be pro-life myself, but I do make the above exceptions) tend towards hatred for women who have had abortions, including those who did it to save their own lives, or who have been raped. There’s probably more at work in their psyche than they really know.

I’m not sure why you have such an aggressive tone. If you don’t think it’s a valid question and is just sophistry, feel free not to post in this thread. In any case, I have an answer from a pro-lifer just below, in fact it’s the very post after your post. How odd.

So, you’re pro-life and you make these exceptions. Is there a moral reason for why you make them, or is it just as a practical matter to get the laws passed? (I ask honestly – your post was a bit all over the place, and hopefully it’s OK that I cut out the parts that really confused me or seemed to be poisoning the well for other pro-lifers that may want to respond.)

Or used contraception correctly but it failed anyway. Even women who have tubal ligations have approximately 1 in 200 chance of getting pregnant with that method. Other methods have higher failure rates, even with “perfect” use.

http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/table.html

And from the male’s standpoint, we all know that condoms never fail. :dubious:

Giving women an out for rape and incest is a dangerous slippery slope for the anti-abortion rights people. Once you start taking into account things like severe mental anguish and the possibility of birth defects, you are drawn into applying those concerns to non-rape and incest victims and allowing abortions in cases of known mental distress and prenatally diagnosed birth defects, and then where are you?

Much better from a consistency standpoint to have a one-size-fits-all mentality.

Morality. Whether or not the laws get passed (as stated by another poster above), the practice abortion will still go on, so that is not really my primary concern. A woman SHOULD have the right to control her body (especially whe a child is conceived unwillingly), but I believe if a woman has consensual sex, knowing the risks, then the child has the right to a chance at life. Also, I do believe that the child is alive at conception. Or, rather, has the potential for life.

I’m pro-life and I make those exceptions. Abortion is murder if it takes place after 10 weeks since conception, in my view. I’m willing to capitulate on a couple of weeks, given or taken.

When a woman or a man has sex, they consent to the possibility that there will be a pregnancy. That’s the point where they accept responsibility for the offspring. The reason rape is an exception is because this consent never happened. You can’t trap a woman into an 18-year commitment that she never consented to. You can, however, do that to a woman (and the man) that had consensual sex.

As for the female-is-the-rapist cases, it apparently still traps the man into fatherhood for 18 years. That’s one of the grossest injustices ever done to another human being by society. I think in those cases, the court should be able to order an abortion to be performed.

As for incest, I see it as a necessary compromise. Most cases of incest are rapes and would you covered under the rape exception. You’re right. But unfortunately, it’s not always that easy to prove. What if the Dad has been raping the daughter her whole life and when she’s 18, she finally gets pregnant? If they can’t prove the rape, then she can’t get the abortion. But since it’s incest, she’s covered. She’s safe.
Is it still murder? Yes. But sometimes murder is morally just.

Also, OP, it’s not safe to assume that because someone is pro-life that they support laws to that effect. I’m pro-atheist, but I don’t support laws banning churches either. My standpoint is a moral one, and it’s up to the woman in question to make the right, moral choice. Whether she does that or not is her business.

In other words, it’s her right to choose and my right to judge her by it.

I think it’s fair to say that your views are somewhat unique – pro-life, but forced abortion if the woman is the rapist, for example, seems out of the mainstream to me. Why is OK to murder the fetus/child/whatever in this case? Your position seems to be a mix between “it’s murder” and “it’s punishment for having sex and getting pregnant.” Would you be OK with an order for the abortion after 10+/-2 weeks? How about at nine months? How about when the child is 3 years old?

What about consensual sex between first cousins, or siblings, or something, above the age of consent? Still OK or not?

I don’t want to get into a semantics game, but I think the term for morally just termination of life is something else, manslaughter or something, not murder.

That’s an extremely slippery slope.

Is it? Is it an inalienable human right to judge people based on their actions, whose motivations we may not understand? Everyone is different (yes, I know this horse is dead), and everyone experiences the world in a different way, so what one person may judge to be a just action, another will see as a crime. Everyone judges, yes, we do it all the time, but is it a right? Will this type of thinking lead from “it’s my right to judge” to “it’s my right to act on that judgement”?
Yes, I know we have a court system, and yes, I know that sometimes action is needed, the world isn’t black and white. But if I don’t know someone, or their situation as they do, I refuse to believe it is my right to judge their actions. This is a slippery subject, and I’m sorry I went off topic for a little while, there.

As for your opinions on the current topic, I agree for the most part, except on above cited quotes.

I was trying to avoid using terms like “anti-choice” or something to that effect. What’s the term for a pro-lifer who thinks that there should be anti-abortion laws? Because a pro-lifer who thinks that it’s really up to the individual and doesn’t support laws against abortion is, in my book, pro-choice.

I’ve always assumed that the exceptions reflect a different balancing of the interests involved, based on the element of coercion.

Any abortion decision requires a weighing of the competing values: The infringement upon the woman’s autonomy that comes with continuing the pregnancy vs. the infringement on the child/fetus/embryo’s personhood that comes with having the abortion. Someone who is pro-choice is typically going to give greater weight to the former, while someone who is pro-life is typically going to give greater weight to the latter.

The basic legal framework recognized/established by Roe (somewhat simplified) requires states to give greater weight to the former during the first two trimesters, but it permits states to assign a greater weight to the latter during the last trimester. Even, then, though, it requires that abortions be permitted when the pregnancy threatens the life or (at least in some circumstances) the health of the woman, because in those particular circumstances the infringement upon her autonomy is greater.

Analogously, a pro-life person might ordinarily weigh the infringement on the fetus over the infringement on the woman, but decide that in the particular cases where the pregnancy was initiated by unwanted coercion, the infringement upon the woman’s autonomy (associated with continuing the pregnancy) is so much greater that it outweighs the infringement on fetal personhood.

I am very pro-choice. However, anyone who believes “life begins at conception,” but makes exceptions for rape and incest is a hypocrit. Or even for thawing unwanted embryos.

Yes, the rape victim should have the child and run the risk of being legally tied to her rapist for 18 years. He should have the option of getting visitation or even custody. If she wants to give the child up for adoption, he should have the legal right to fight it.

I am not in favor of banning abortion in most cases though, like Chessic Sense, I have moral objections to it in most cases. The fact is, even with exceptions, without a great deal of specificity that gets overly complicated from an external perspective, it’s just impossible to draw any meaningful lines. Moreso, I simply don’t believe in legislating morality. Besides, it’s sort of a silly discussion anyway because the very few abortions actually fall into the exceptions or, on the other end, the cases where the vast majority of people would see it as utterly morally repugnant.
Anyway, specifically to address the OP, I can sort of understand the exception for rape, which is simply that a woman has already been violated and then gets further punished by having to be the mother of a child of not only a criminal, but of someone who did such a horrible thing to her, and asking her to care for that child and love that child is something that is hard for society to ask of her and something that is perhaps difficult to do. How can she look at the child and not so often be reminded of how he was conceived?

So, to that end, I understand the exception, especially when it’s in a case where she gets raped, reports it to the police, and upon discovering her pregnancy, terminates immediately. It would be a lot more difficult to justify if she was raped and waited some period of time before terminating. But still, I would think that anyone who truly believes life begins at conception still ought to have trouble weighing that burden, as great as it is, against what they perceive as murder.
The incest exception makes less sense to me. Someone who does support that explained to me that it has a lot to do with the higher risk of birth defects and such, but then shouldn’t it be an exception just for birth defects? Why should a child, conceived in incest, who shows no significant signs of genetic problems be allowed to be aborted for that risk, when a non-incest conceived child who clearly has a terrible birth defect and will certainly either die in birth or shortly thereafter not be allowed to be aborted?

But even then, legislating on that becomes very difficult to justify. Certainly, I don’t think many would object to aborting a child who would be born without a brain, but what if a parent finds out a child will have a perfectly survivable defect like missing a leg or mentally impaired? If we legislate a line too far in one direction, we may end up putting parents through hardships and pain and expenses for no reason, and if we push it too far to the other, we’re essentially encouraging eugenics.

Anyway, I think that the logic is supposed to be to allow for those very serious types of birth defects that, rightly or wrongly, they believe are significantly more likely in cases of incest.
And, of course, beyond all of that, I think it’s largely an attempt to create a broader stance. I think even a lot of pro-choice people consider the idea of using abortion essentially as birth control and late term abortions are both morally repugnant but support it because they think that it makes sense for a handful of cases and it shouldn’t be banned for those people who need it because of others who misuse it, along the lines of a quote I often heard “legal, but rare”. As such, I think it’s largely an attempt to recruit people along those lines, to say that they really aren’t all that different because, afterall, most pro-lifers are primarily against the same things and while they may even find the exceptions morally objectionable, I think they’d probably rather allow those and ban what they see as some of the greatest injustices than allow all of it.

Well, if I were pro-life and I thought abortion was murder, being murdered is a pretty heavy infringement on the fetus. I can think of no other cases where such an infringement as murder is acceptable for otherwise innocent bystanders.

Why is it “sophistry”?

If someone thinks life beings at conception then it is never permissible to kill it regardless of the circumstances that led to it being there. Period. (In the case where the mother may die I can see it since the unborn will die without the mother anyway so the proper choice is to save at least one life.)

Pro-lifers who bend on this idea are either:

  1. Inconsistent in their reasoning and do not understand their own position

  2. Attempting to get laws passed which probably wouldn’t with those restrictions…they can go for the rape/incest exception after they get abortion otherwise banned.

#2 makes sense to me. It is just a pragmatic way to achieve their agenda. Those who are anti-abortion and adhere to #1 are just full of shit.

Let’s not pretend that abortion is about pregnancy. Nine months is nothing, and the first three are pretty easy. It’s hardly ever about that. It’s about whether you want to raise a child for the next 18 years. Forced abortion is OK because, like when the female is raped, the male’s autonomy is more important than the fetus’s. When the child is born, the father also becomes a parent. That’s NOT OK when the “father” is a raped 12-year old boy.

Which is worse, killing the unborn or forcing a boyfriend and girlfriend to raise their child? Killing the unborn.
Which is worse, killing the unborn or forcing a rape victim to mother a child? Forcing the victim.
Which is worse, killing the unborn or forcing a rape victim to father a child? Forcing the victim.
Also, I don’t know what “it” is in the “It’s punishment for…” sentence. Abortion or raising the child?

No, it’s still immoral in that case. But since I’m not arguing for laws to be passed, then I don’t need to weigh in for “Incest abortions- for or against?” I can go case-by-case if I want to.

So long as I’m a thinking individual operating in society, I will judge people. I will judge their eating habits, their ability to drive a car, their choice of music, and their hair style. I will judge whether they’re trustworthy or frugal or funny or generous or manipulative or obtuse or articulate. I will judge whether their song could have used a crescendo earlier or if their text would have benefited from passive voice.

Because my senses are bombarded with information about people, I must process and retain that information, and that’s called “judgment”. And because this is all derived from being alive and interacting with people, it’s my right to do so. It’s not a right granted by society, so much as it is derived by natural law.

“Will this type of thinking lead from “it’s my right to judge” to “it’s my right to act on that judgement”?” Of course it will lead to action. But it’s a stretch of logic to suggest, as you did, that this is some slippery slope to wantonly slaughtering those I don’t like (I assume you had overtones of abortion-doctor-killings in your post.) But just because I can’t lock you in a cage doesn’t mean I can’t defriend you from Facebook.

While the minutia can be debated, we all know where the firm boundaries lie- they’re codified in law and our social mores. It’s not a slippery slope. It’s very sticky indeed.

This may be why some pro-life people support a rape/incest exception and some do not. I.e., some of them assign a overwhelmingly high personhood value to the fetus (like you’re postulating), while others believe abortion to be an repugnant killing but still sufficiently different from murder of an already-born person that in some circumstances it can be excused.

I don’t think this necessarily follows. Even for those already born, who are unquestionably living human beings, there are circumstances where society deems it justifiable to kill them, because it other supervening interests override their right to continue living. War being the most obvious example. Similarly, one can assert that a fetus is a life that is generally worth protecting, while recognizing that there may be limited circumstances where other interests are sufficiently significant to justify (or at least excuse) its killing.