Pro-lifers: What would you do if you were in charge?

[Der_Trihs]

@bldysabba

You repeat this assertion many times, but I don’t see why. There’s middle ground on the subject. I’m pro-abortion, but it isn’t hard to see that abortion of late term pregnancies, in particular, are not dissimilar to infanticide. In addition, I believe late term abortions also carry significant risk to both mother and child. A reasonable case can thus be made against abortion of a pregnancy that is sufficiently advanced, unless medically advised. Would you characterize anyone making this argument desirous of oppressing, tormenting and killing women?

Yes, because wherever you got it, it’s a piece of anti-abortion propaganda. Late term abortions are done because the mother is in danger, the fetus is hopelessly defective, or already dead. The main purpose and effect of restricting late term abortions is to endanger the mother. An example would be the so-called “partial abortion ban”, which didn’t ban any late term abortions - it banned the safest method of performing such abortions. Its only effect - and only purpose - was to endanger women. The anti-abortionists pushed for it because in their view any time a woman is in pain, any time she suffers injury or death, that’s a victory for them. And that is exactly what their every act is designed to do; not to reduce the number of abortions, but simply to hurt women.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@bldysabba

You repeat this assertion many times, but I don’t see why. There’s middle ground on the subject. I’m pro-abortion, but it isn’t hard to see that abortion of late term pregnancies, in particular, are not dissimilar to infanticide. In addition, I believe late term abortions also carry significant risk to both mother and child. A reasonable case can thus be made against abortion of a pregnancy that is sufficiently advanced, unless medically advised. Would you characterize anyone making this argument desirous of oppressing, tormenting and killing women?

He didn’t say anything about late term abortions, and nor did the poster he responded to. I can’t speak for DT, but most Americans (and more importantly, our Supreme Court) are okay with greater restriction of late-term abortions.

[Annie-Xmas]

Before abortion was legal, the doctor had to find some fetal tissue in any woman in the emergency room claiming a miscarriage. If none was found, the doctor had to report it to the police.

I personally wish every woman considering abortion would carry and deliver, then let the baby be adopted by a nice gay or lesbian couple.

[Der_Trihs]

@Annie-Xmas

I personally wish every woman considering abortion would carry and deliver, then let the baby be adopted by a nice gay or lesbian couple.

Consider that there is already a backlog for adoptive parents, that would never happen, and trying would just create more unwanted children and more suffering. And inflict unwanted danger, suffering, and long term health consequences on the mother.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

There is a backlog for adoptive parents for non-infants. There are, in fact, more than enough prospective adoptive parents for babies. Whether there are enough qualified ones is another matter.

[Czarcasm]

@Annie-Xmas

Before abortion was legal, the doctor had to find some fetal tissue in any woman in the emergency room claiming a miscarriage. If none was found, the doctor had to report it to the police.

I personally wish every woman considering abortion would carry and deliver, then let the baby be adopted by a nice gay or lesbian couple.

And if she develops an emotional attachment during those 9 months and decides to keep it, even if she is mentally, physically, financially(or any combination thereof) incapable, so much the better, right?

[BigAppleBucky]

Deleted by poster.

[BigAppleBucky]

@Susanann

It is a rough estimate/summation of how many woman have had abortions since Roe VS, Wade, plus the doctors, nurses, councilors, facilitators, receptionists, in abortion clinics, etc.

Perhaps I should have said a million executions/death penalties each year for baby murderers.

We get about a million baby murders a year, I dont know how many of those are muliple murderers from prior years.

Wiki says about 42 million abortions in the USA since Roe v Wade.

This source says about 1.37 million abortions per year:
http://abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

No idea how accurate that would be. So the executions would “only” be 2.74 million people a year. (2 X the number of abortions on the assumption that , on average, each abortion has a mother and a “helper” involved.)

Makes Susanann sound pretty bloodthirsty.

[Shodan]

@Der_Trihs

Y Late term abortions are done because the mother is in danger, the fetus is hopelessly defective, or already dead.

Actually, what you are claiming is a piece of pro-abortion propaganda, which is quite false. (Cite- pdf).

In February 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, told the New York Times that “in the vast majority of cases” the method is used on “a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along.”

Contrary to the assertion of abortion rights supporters that late-term abortion is performed for serious reasons, surveys of late abortion patients confirm that the vast majority occur because of delay in diagnosis of pregnancy. They are done for similar reasons as early abortions: relationship problems, young or old maternal age, education or financial concerns.

Cite, cite, cite.

Not that it will do any good this time either.

Regards,
Shodan

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Shodan

Actually, what you are claiming is a piece of pro-abortion propaganda, which is quite false. (Cite- pdf).

In February 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, told the New York Times that “in the vast majority of cases” the method is used on “a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along.”

Dilation and evacuation (what Fitzsimmons was talking about) =/= late term abortion.

[Weeping_Wyvern]

@Der_Trihs

It does. Opposition to abortion is motivated by the desire to oppress, torment and kill women. It also is an assertion that a woman’s body doesn’t belong to her, and is the moral equivalent of rape.

So why do I only want to oppress, torment, and kill women who want to have abortions? Do I just have a pregnancy fetish?

If I really wanted to (legally) kill as many women as I could, I think I would just move to India and open a practice specializing in aborting unwanted girls.

@Lynn_Bodoni

Contraception is cheaper than child support. Exactly. So let’s help poor families/poor women put off having kids until they are more capable of affording them, rather than encouraging people to have more kids that they can’t really afford.

But the poor women who DO get pregnant - what are we supposed to do about them? Maybe the child shouldn’t’ve been conceived in the first place, but since it was, it seems to me that we have a moral obligation to help it, especially since it’s not responsible for the irresponsibility of its parents. It’s not “encouraging” or “subsidizing”; it’s just compassion. I thought government assistance was considered a “liberal” position in the USA, but I guess I learn new things every day.

[Shodan]

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Dilation and evacuation (what Fitzsimmons was talking about) =/= late term abortion.
[/QUOTE]
That cite was in response to the part of Der Trihs’ monumentally stupid post where he claimed outlawing partial birth abortion was done to cause sick women to suffer from giving birth. This is false, just like practically everything else he has ever posted on the subject of abortion.

You will note that the other three cites all refer to late term abortion in general. They also show him to be wildly wrong.

Regards,
Shodan

[Lynn_Bodoni]

But the poor women who DO get pregnant - what are we supposed to do about them? Maybe the child shouldn’t’ve been conceived in the first place, but since it was, it seems to me that we have a moral obligation to help it, especially since it’s not responsible for the irresponsibility of its parents. It’s not “encouraging” or “subsidizing”; it’s just compassion. I thought government assistance was considered a “liberal” position in the USA, but I guess I learn new things every day. :P[URL=“http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=15355090”]

We give the poor pregnant women assistance in the form of future low cost or no cost birth control, so they don’t have yet another child to feed. And yes, giving a child support payment every month WOULD be subsidizing larger families for the poor.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Shodan

That cite was in response to the part of Der Trihs’ monumentally stupid post where he claimed outlawing partial birth abortion was done to cause sick women to suffer from giving birth. This is false, just like practically everything else he has ever posted on the subject of abortion.

Then you quoted the wrong part of his post.

[monavis]

@Susanann

Abortion is murder, the penalties should be the same regardless of the age of the vicitim. As far as leaving the country, those people get off scott free, as they do for any other crime which is a crime here, but not there. Those who “assist” in murder(doctors, nurses, receptionists, owners of the clinic, parents, boyfriends, etc), should get the same penalties as those who assist in any other murder - the death penalty or life in prison.

I definitely prefer execution, because the cost of imprisoning 30 million baby murderers for life, would be in the trillions of dollars. Perhaps many states who dont have the death penalty, would change and reinstate the death penalty under the staggering costs of imprisoning so many doctors, nurses, and women.

I see no exceptions for those who were raped, or who’s life is in danger(except in those cases where the child will surely die anyway - very very rare(and in those cases, a governors pardon is in order).

Do you really think a fertile egg is a person? Would you then be guilty of killing a chicken, horse etc. it is the same biologicly. ? Are you willing to pay to raise the child until it is an adult? Is it better to have a child then abuse it, or see it starve( as in some countries that happens). Will you gladly pay higher taxes to support the Woman through her pregnancy, or have it planted in your womb or you relative’s womb?

Do you believe in freedom of religion, since abortion is a religious matter? Would you like to be made to have 30 children or be pregnant all your fertile years. Why not provide free Birth control to every woman of child bearing years?Tthat in itself would prevent a lot of abortions. Are you as interested in the life of the born, or are you just pro-birth? If you are Christian do you recall Jesus defending the prostitue? He didn’t seem to think we should be looking at other’s private lives and despised the Pharisees who did!

[monavis]

@Slindorff

But the whole crux of your argument is that life is sacred and the wilfull taking of life is murder.

Is life more sacred before birth than after? If so why are so many so called pro-life people against women on welfare, why do they not want to pay taxes to support them once born, why not give free help until the child is an adult? I have asked this before, but if a person were in a lab, where there was a container of frozen embryo’s, the building was on fire, a already born person was unconscience. which would they help out, the many embryos or the already born person?

[monavis]

@Susanann

1. I agree that it is horrible, but the woman still retains her “choice”.

2. I dont think anyone, any normal person, “enjoys” giving the death penalty. I agree, giving the death penalty to murderers is horrible, but it is just.

Much better if people just stop murdering each other - no murder, no death penalty.

Once a law is passed to give the death penalty for murder, it then becomes the choice/decision of the woman and the doctor to be executed or not. The prochoice people still get “some/most” of what they want, since the woman still has the “choice” to abort or not - the only thing that is different is that she will be executed if she chooses to murder. Her decision, not mine.

Strange, but, even in the case of an adult killing another there are many different reasons( according to the law) that all killings are not considered Murder. And I guess the woman has no chance of self defence to a person who would force her to put her life on the line to satisfy their religious beliefs. Biologicly there is no difference between a human’s way of forming then a animal, we don’t call a fertile egg a chicken, and there is no difference in a human egg. A man’s sperm contains human life and even with each ejaculation the results in a pregancy, many human lives are lost!

[Der_Trihs]

Susann: “Last Activity: 04-11-2012 07:00 AM”

Slindorff: “Last Activity: 12-23-2003 09:46 AM”

Might be some time before they answer your questions.

@Weeping_Wyvern

So why do I only want to oppress, torment, and kill women who want to have abortions? Do I just have a pregnancy fetish?

No; abortion is simply a convenient club to use. Plus of course they’ve had sex, which sets off the religious hatred of many believers.

@Weeping_Wyvern

If I really wanted to (legally) kill as many women as I could, I think I would just move to India and open a practice specializing in aborting unwanted girls.

No, because then they wouldn’t suffer. And they’d never actually be women.

@Weeping_Wyvern

But the poor women who DO get pregnant - what are we supposed to do about them? Maybe the child shouldn’t’ve been conceived in the first place, but since it was, it seems to me that we have a moral obligation to help it, especially since it’s not responsible for the irresponsibility of its parents.

It’s a thing, not a person. The woman is a person. Therefore, her needs and desires take precedence. And forcing her to go through pregnancy and birth is a punishment, which causes significant suffering and medical consequences, some permanent. And then there’s the emotional trauma of being reduced to the status of a breeding animal as a deliberate humiliation and punishment.

[monavis]

@Philly_Style

Since I believe that life begins at conception, the penalties would be the same as for any other murder.

If it is life, it can’t be taken.

In reality"Life"began eons ago, and even if yu believe the Adam and Eve story it wasthousands.It is a proven fact that “life” is a passed on thing through the generations.

[monavis]

@GeoJon

qt:
Oh! I get it now. We’re supposed to base all law and punishment on the bible! It’s all clear to me now GeoJon. Thank you so much for the enlightenment!

qt:
who completely misunderstands 'eye for eye . . .' 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking for a little more objectivity~

seeking to understand stem of justices/logic~
What was your persuasion that lead you to your reality?
Is it relatively of your own opinion 
or
absolutely truly your solid self-derived calculated expression?
Where the concept of conception moves from baby to using a named word , not a translated word, and of a general belief masked by other than a simplest translated word we will see fetus replacing progeny replacing baby
...
OK
Only if it does not change this fact:
HUMAN, as in human being~

Now answer Q's / penalties. (or review EXODUS,and the like)

Now answer-
who completely misunderstands 'eye for eye . . .' ?
Reader:
-discern a difference between sighting another historical document
(I felt was a mere review about largely proven RECORDS of past findings in multiple copies- laws of a land and a people- EXODUS )
 vs. 
what is 'fable' or a mere view of a nations past beliefs
or 
find most stems of your historical records to be defined as fables,
 -some effort, 
but it is there to be seen.
Note:
Did you hear-
Walls in Iraq, of another author , prior to remodeling last year,  had an Assyrian account of civilization as found in the number-one top book selling in the world: the Bible.

Less than 4 years ago, another (only Biblical) city was uncovered.

Do you believe in Greek philosophers’ lives and writings  ?  
Some major and common ones don’t even have one historical record found earlier than 900 A.D.
You don't know my beliefs, elsewhere we can discuss where are the roots of generational thinking from that have lead to our thoughts, your thoughts...

Was the writings of another human or who else wrote it?