Pro-lifers: What would you do if you were in charge?

[Blalron]

Pretend that a constitutional amendment allows abortion to be outlawed. A pro-life congress and president are fully in charge. You are on the commitee to draft the new rules.

What kind of penalties would you put into place for:

(1) Doctors who carry out abortions

(2) Women who receive abortions from those doctors

(3) Women who induce abortion without any outside help.

(4) Pregnant women who leave the country with the intent of getting an abortion.

(5) People who assist women in getting an abortion, such as taking them to a doctor that would illegally give her one.

(6) What are the penalties for possessing abortion causing drugs? For selling? Manufacturing?

(7) What about conspiracy to commit abortion?

(8) Reckless behavior that causes a fetus to be miscarried?

(9) Third trimester abortions versus abortions done in the first or second. Would the penalty be the same or different?

(10) What about accessories to abortion? What kind of penalty would a nurse face that was present during an illegal abortion? She didn’t actually carry it out, but is there to help if something goes wrong. Obviously, she is failing to report the illegal activity and is playing a part in it.

(11) Would repeat offenders get harsher penalties?

(12) Would there be exceptions for rape? If so how can a woman effectively prove that she was raped, like she was passed out drunk one night and wasn’t aware of the violation until she realized she was pregnant, at which time all physical evidence that the rape occurred has disappeared?

(13) What if the mother’s life is in danger?

(14) What about her health? How serious does the health risk have to be before she can get an abortion?

What the health exception include mental health? If she has a history of serious post partum depression and would be in serious mental anguish if she were to give birth again, would abortion be allowed?

You don’t have to say that a certain activity gets exactly X number of years, but I want a range. For example, say "Doing this gets you between 1 years and 5 years, at the judges discretion."

[Susanann]

Abortion is murder, the penalties should be the same regardless of the age of the vicitim. As far as leaving the country, those people get off scott free, as they do for any other crime which is a crime here, but not there. Those who “assist” in murder(doctors, nurses, receptionists, owners of the clinic, parents, boyfriends, etc), should get the same penalties as those who assist in any other murder - the death penalty or life in prison.

I definitely prefer execution, because the cost of imprisoning 30 million baby murderers for life, would be in the trillions of dollars. Perhaps many states who dont have the death penalty, would change and reinstate the death penalty under the staggering costs of imprisoning so many doctors, nurses, and women.

I see no exceptions for those who were raped, or who’s life is in danger(except in those cases where the child will surely die anyway - very very rare(and in those cases, a governors pardon is in order).

[Blalron]

As far as leaving the country, those people get off scott free, as they do for any other crime which is a crime here, but not there.

Not neccesarily the case. For example, there is a federal law preventing people from leaving the country with the intent to have sex with a minor under the age of 16.

The actual act of having sex with a 15 year old in Thailand is not illegal. However, leaving the country with the intent of doing so is a federal crime.

[Conflict_of_Interest]

Susanann’s way of saying it may be a little harsh. But assuming they were made illegal by that type of administration then you would also have to assume the the penalties would be equally harsh.

And since pro-life philosophy is that abortion is killing, then the people who committed or assisted with the crime would face long jail terms or even death.

I would think that in cases of rape and if the life of the mother is threatened then its not an elective abortion so it could be made legal.

As far as your last statement, I don’t think that should be allowed. If a person knows that they should not get pregnant again and does anyway, then they are responsible for their own actions. And should be held to same “sanity” standard that all others who commit crimes are held to.

[emacknight]

*Originally posted by Conflict of Interest *
**As far as your last statement, I don’t think that should be allowed. If a person knows that they should not get pregnant again and does anyway, then they are responsible for their own actions. And should be held to same “sanity” standard that all others who commit crimes are held to. **

Is a miscarriage. going to count as manslaughter?

If a woman had a miscarriage before, should she be allowed to ever try again? If she knows that her actions are going to lead to the death of her fetus, would that not be gross negligence causing death? In this case does the father go to jail with her?

[Conflict_of_Interest]

*Originally posted by emacknight *
**Is a miscarriage. going to count as manslaughter?

If a woman had a miscarriage before, should she be allowed to ever try again? If she knows that her actions are going to lead to the death of her fetus, would that not be gross negligence causing death? In this case does the father go to jail with her? **

She is not the one inducing the abortion. That’s why they are called spontaneous abortions. So no, she didn’t do anything wrong nor is it wrong to try again. A pregnancy aborts on it’s own for many reasons. Usually because it wasn’t viable.

Now if she or someone else caused her to miscarry on purpose then yes she or whomever caused it would then be held accountable for the act. In fact in many states that is already the law.

[FudgeNugget]

*Originally posted by Susanann *
**Abortion is murder, the penalties should be the same regardless of the age of the vicitim. As far as leaving the country, those people get off scott free, as they do for any other crime which is a crime here, but not there. Those who “assist” in murder(doctors, nurses, receptionists, owners of the clinic, parents, boyfriends, etc), should get the same penalties as those who assist in any other murder - the death penalty or life in prison.

I definitely prefer execution, because the cost of imprisoning 30 million baby murderers for life, would be in the trillions of dollars. Perhaps many states who dont have the death penalty, would change and reinstate the death penalty under the staggering costs of imprisoning so many doctors, nurses, and women.

I see no exceptions for those who were raped, or who’s life is in danger(except in those cases where the child will surely die anyway - very very rare(and in those cases, a governors pardon is in order). **

You would allow a woman who had no intention of having and taking care of a child, to do so, after getting raped? Why?

[FudgeNugget]

*Originally posted by Blalron *
**Not neccesarily the case. For example, there is a federal law preventing people from leaving the country with the intent to have sex with a minor under the age of 16.

The actual act of having sex with a 15 year old in Thailand is not illegal. However, leaving the country with the intent of doing so is a federal crime. **

How would the US enforce those laws?

[Conflict_of_Interest]

*Originally posted by FudgeNugget *
**How would the US enforce those laws? **

Well in the case stated they can arrest the person upon re-enty into the US. But only if they know and can somehow prove that a crime was committed. I think it would be rather hard though myself.

[Thudlow_Boink]

*Originally posted by FudgeNugget *
**You would allow a woman who had no intention of having and taking care of a child, to do so, after getting raped? Why? **

If you accept the premise that abortion is murder, then it’s still murder no matter the circumstances under which the baby was conceived. If the fetus is to be considered a human being, with a right to life, then to be logically consistent you can’t deny it that right, before birth or after, because it was conceived during a rape. Conversely, if the traumatic effects on the mother of bearing a child that was the result of rape are allowed to trump the fetus’s right to life in this case, why wouldn’t considerations of effects on the mother and her rights allow abortions in other cases?

Less central, but also worth considering: if rape were the only legal excuse for an abortion, wouldn’t the number of false accusations of rape greatly increase?
The OP contains some good questions, which I won’t even try to answer because I’m not among the pro-lifers they’re addressed to. Both abortion itself, and the outlawing/punishing of it, give me the creeps when I seriously consider the implications.

[FudgeNugget]

*Originally posted by Conflict of Interest *
**Well in the case stated they can arrest the person upon re-enty into the US. But only if they know and can somehow prove that a crime was committed. I think it would be rather hard though myself. **

How would they know? Is an FBI agent going to follow you around Thailand making sure you don’t pick up 15 year olds? :rolleyes:

Not saying I’m planning on committing it, but how are laws like that enforced?

[Blalron]

If a woman had a miscarriage before, should she be allowed to ever try again? If she knows that her actions are going to lead to the death of her fetus, would that not be gross negligence causing death? In this case does the father go to jail with her?

This is actually a good question. What about women who know that they are prone to miscarriages? My late grandmother went through numerous miscarriages before she had my father and my aunt. If she knew that her actions were extremly likely to result in dead fetusus, isn’t that reckless endangerment of human life?

[FudgeNugget]

*Originally posted by Thudlow Boink *
**If you accept the premise that abortion is murder, then it’s still murder no matter the circumstances under which the baby was conceived. If the fetus is to be considered a human being, with a right to life, then to be logically consistent you can’t deny it that right, before birth or after, because it was conceived during a rape. Conversely, if the traumatic effects on the mother of bearing a child that was the result of rape are allowed to trump the fetus’s right to life in this case, why wouldn’t considerations of effects on the mother and her rights allow abortions in other cases? **

What would happen to the child if the mother was a victim of rape? Would that the mother be forced to take care of a child that she didn’t want and isn’t able to take care of? Or do all childs like this go to orphanages?

**
Less central, but also worth considering: if rape were the only legal excuse for an abortion, wouldn’t the number of false accusations of rape greatly increase? **

True.

**
The OP contains some good questions, which I won’t even try to answer because I’m not among the pro-lifers they’re addressed to. Both abortion itself, and the outlawing/punishing of it, give me the creeps when I seriously consider the implications. **

[Conflict_of_Interest]

*Originally posted by FudgeNugget *
**How would they know? Is an FBI agent going to follow you around Thailand making sure you don’t pick up 15 year olds? :rolleyes:

Not saying I’m planning on committing it, but how are laws like that enforced? **

That was my point too. I have no idea how they would. However, if the parents of the 15 year old said you took her without their permission they may be able to do something there. But after the fact, unless she is pregnant how do they know whether you had sex with her or not.

[Blalron]

Well, maybe they could use credit card records that said you spend $500 at the Thai Underage Sex House. That might work.

[Payton_s_Servant]

*Originally posted by Susanann *
**Those who “assist” in murder(doctors, nurses, receptionists, owners of the clinic, parents, boyfriends, etc), should get the same penalties as those who assist in any other murder - the death penalty or life in prison.

I definitely prefer execution, because the cost of imprisoning 30 million baby murderers for life, would be in the trillions of dollars. Perhaps many states who dont have the death penalty, would change and reinstate the death penalty under the staggering costs of imprisoning so many doctors, nurses, and women.
**

So let me see if I’ve got this straight:

1. You favor the executing, ie, murder for those who have abortions and those who assist in having abortions.

2. But you say you’re “pro-life.”

Don’t even try and tell me that you can’t see the huge hypocracy there.

[Conflict_of_Interest]

*Originally posted by Payton’s Servant *
**So let me see if I’ve got this straight:

1. You favor the executing, ie, murder for those who have abortions and those who assist in having abortions.

2. But you say you’re “pro-life.”

Don’t even try and tell me that you can’t see the huge hypocracy there. **

Actually, I don’t. It sounds like you equate execution with murder. I do not. An execution is a penalty extracted by society upon someone that has done very severe acts such as killing somone else in a premeditated fashion.

If, and this is the crux of the whole thread, the “pro-life congress and president” deemed it murder to have or assist with an abortion, then to do so would be premeditated murder. And if the laws governing punishment of those acts is execution then this would be a just punishment in the eyes of the law. And even society as a whole because they are the ones that knowingly placed the president and congress into power.

Look at what the thread is all about. This has nothing to do with “is execution considered murder”.

[Blalron]

I sincerely hope the comment about executing 30 million women was not made seriously.

[emacknight]

Let’s assume for now that you would execute women who had abortions, and the doctors that performed that, since they were premeditated. Would you execute someone who was pregnant?

[Blalron]

I’m sure the pro-lifers would wait until the baby was born to execute its mother.