Pro-lifers: What would you do if you were in charge?

[gatorslap]

@Weeping_Wyvern

And when pray tell does it become a person? Is there a magical point of transformation when this glob of cells suddenly becomes a full-fledged human? The human body is continually changing, in form, needs, and capability, from conception to death.

Do you believe in vitro fertilization should be banned? How about IUDs?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Weeping_Wyvern

There is indeed a difference. I can think of plenty of things which are evil yet should be legal. But if my views on the morality of abortion are correct, then it’s not simply a personal vice which the law can afford to tolerate. Instead, it has a direct and deadly impact on other people.

Well, the law in the U.S. has tolerated it for several decades, now. If this was something the law could not “afford” to tolerate, what negative effects should we be seeing by now?

I mean, if the law decided to “tolerate” murder, then I guess the U.S. would be a far more violent place, with walls and private security everywhere (I just got back from Jamaica, and that’s a fair description of Kingston). What happens if a society tolerates abortion for several decades? Anarchy? Infanticide?

[Weeping_Wyvern]

@Der_Trihs

No; a great deal of what people say is based on facts and logic, not just baseless assertions.

Very true. But that doesn’t change the fact that any statement uttered by a person is by definition “according to” that person.

@gatorslap

Do you believe in vitro fertilization should be banned? How about IUDs?

I think IVF is rather creepy (especially if a third party “donates” sperm for the procedure), but as long as “extra” embryos aren’t destroyed, I would allow it. Americans have the right to be creepy.

@Bryan_Ekers

Well, the law in the U.S. has tolerated it for several decades, now. If this was something the law could not “afford” to tolerate, what negative effects should we be seeing by now?

The only negative effect of abortion is abortion. If you deny that abortion is a bad thing, then I freely admit that from your perspective, there are no negative effects. Except perhaps the presence of annoying pro-lifers. Haha.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Yeah, I don’t think I can take you seriously any more, after that.

[Troppus]

@Weeping_Wyvern

I think IVF is rather creepy (especially if a third party “donates” sperm for the procedure), but as long as “extra” embryos aren’t destroyed, I would allow it. Americans have the right to be creepy.

.

So the 61,500 infants delivered in 2010 to parents who wanted children so badly they were willing to undergo painful, risky, and ridiculously expensive procedures in order to bear children are creepy, but you would rather force those who do not have the resources t

[Troppus]

…force those who do[ol]
[/ol] not have the resources to bear a pregnancy, or who cannot endure a pregnancy without great risk to their health, and those who simply do not wish to allow a clump of cells to form an infant to endure a pregnancy because it suits you? Do you see anything incongruous about your POV?

[Troppus]

I’ve no personal experience with IVF but I did visit a high risk OB/GYN every two weeks for the duration of my pregnancy and chatted with numerous hopeful moms who had endured months and often years of risky, expensive procedures because they wanted children so badly. I imagine the pains each took to maintain the pregnancy required 100% of their waking attention, and that each infant resulting from such procedures was badly wanted and loved before he or she ever took the first breath. Those desperately wanted infants do not compare to an unwanted clump of cells. There is nothing creepy about using the technology we have achieved to make it possible for those who want to be parents to conceive. There is something decidedly creepy about forcing those who do not wish to endure a pregnancy to do so.

[monavis]

@gatorslap

Do you believe in vitro fertilization should be banned? How about IUDs?

When it is fully developed it is then a fully developed human and even according to our laws that is the case. The best way to prevent Abortions is to prevent conception in the first place, the morning after pill is one way of cutting down on having unwanted children. To me it is wrong to force a woman to have a child she doesn’t want , that will be abused physically, mentally etc., and in cases such as some third world country where so many die of starvation or deceases because the mother has more children than can be fed properly. Having a child( or more)

die a slow death is (in my mind) worse than aborting. If she had proper birth control so many deaths could be avoided.

[monavis]

@Weeping_Wyvern

Clearly the difference is that while all the things you mention have the potential for danger, in themselves they are morally neutral. Abortion, however, is impossible to commit without doing evil.
The pro-choice argument I can most respect is the one that goes like this: “Yes, abortion kills innocent human life, but preserving the woman’s freedom is a more important goal”.
Well obviously anyone who dies in the act of committing a crime (be it abortion or any other crime) is not innocent. This doesn’t mean I rejoice in their deaths, though, because

1. I do not favor capital punishment.
2. If we do execute criminals, it should be done by the state alone.

There are cases of self defense and a woman has that right as well. who can tell better than the woman and her doctor? Just as the death penalty has caused the death of many innocent people. War even kills most innocent people, women, children,even some with disabilities. We tend to justify wars etc. but should not judge a woman’s situation, since we do not live in her body, or situation.

[monavis]

@badger5149

This topic tears my heart out for everyone concerned. I am pro-life.
Child birth is a very natural very primitive act. Not much we do in modern society can be related to child birth. In nature it is natural for mothers of all species to routinely kill their off spring if they feel for some reason they should not have that baby. Legislating something so primitive and natural is beyond the right of men.
I do see the child as human, I do feel a woman or teenager should have at least a few hours of pre counseling from a pro life standpoint. I have witnessed the guilt and shame women have suffered years following abortions.
I also see abortion as a liberal means of genocide against the poor and minorities, but bottom line is the final choice does lie with the woman or girl. She does have the right to murder that child. The fetus is parasitic for survival. Simply seperating from the fetus ensures that death will occur. If their is a God that judges these things he will do so at the proper time, if not then the baby will incur some suffering as it is murdered and then life will just go on.

At what stage can you look at it and say that is a child? In a petri dish? Once it can be recognized as a child is one thing,before that is another.

Are you willing to pay a lot more in taxes to support the woman or see that she has the method to not concieve in the first place? if you crack a fertile chicken egg did you kill a chicken…biologically it is the same.

The guilt and shame was put on them by the pro- birthers who spend more time looking for the speck in other’s eyes, and can’t see the plank in their own.They also complain about paying taxes for welfare women..I wonder why?

There are woman who have lived for many years with the guilt of having given up a child for adoption, Or knew the child was a product of their rapist!

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@Skammer

• make sure comprehensive sex education (including but not limited to common methods of contraception) are taught in schools;
• provide affordable or free health care to women, including family planning and contraception services;
• establish a national network of adoption services to match couples who want to adopt with mothers who don’t want to keep their baby;
• provide job training and subsidized child care for working mothers

Basically, I would enact as many programs as I could to 1) reduce unwanted pregnancies and 2) remove barriers to bringing unwanted babies to term.

The net result, I believe, would be a very sharp drop in the number of abortions, while respecting the rights of mothers and doctors and not throwing people into jail.

What he said.