If I have to choose, I’d go with false. There are indeed non-violent ways to get international attention, though the potential for violence is clearly a useful tool in negotiation.
A fair comparison at this point is comparing the West Bank and Gaza - which is showing more economic improvement and which is expressing more violence toward Israel? Are these things positively correlated, negatively correlated or uncorrelated? It was my understanding that Fatah (in the West Bank) and Hamas (in Gaza) had slightly different approaches to Israel. Whose is working better?
Vague notions of having to fight to liberty and all are fine, but some real-world examples would be nice.
Ah, old Hobbes again: Covenants without the sword are but words. The distinction here, I’d suggest, is that Israel signed a treaty promising to uphold such a covenant, which was not simply voted in by a majority of the General Assembly, but considered in depth by learned, independent judges. That is rather different to some bunch of lawyers in Holland declaring out of the blue what was what. I don’t know why Israel doesn’t just withdraw its signature from the UN Charter, actually.
I don’t see what difference it would make. At one point the UN general council declared that Zionism was (uniquely for any nationalism) racism. Did that mean that Israel should have admitted it was a racist entity and disbanded itself, or cut itself off from the UN (which is admittedly a useful forum for some purposes)?
It isn’t much surprise that it did neither, nor does that situation necessarily reflect badly on Israel - more on those member countries who use the UN forum for such nakedly and one-sidedly partisan purposes.
What this situation has done, is remove whatever moral force there may be to UN pronouncements on the issue. The UN declaring Israeli actions “illegal” now has very little effect, for which the UN members who have so egregiously abused and manipulated the UN organs to their own advantage have no-one but themselves to blame.
Every contract signed under domestic law comes with an implied term - that the other party will enact the requirements of that contract “in good faith”. The UN Member states have not carried out the functions of the UN Charter in good faith towards Israel, and the fault is not Israel’s.
Which isn’t of course to say that Israel is without faults. Far from it. What it is to say, is that a UN pronouncement of Israeli faults has very little persuasive or moral power.
Again, this isn’t the General Assembly voting that the wall be declared illegal, it is the independent judges of the Intenational Court of Justice deciding, after many months of rigorous legal consideration, that the wall constitutes a grave breach of promises Israel has explicitly made. If Israel were merely to explicitly retract those promises, the wall would no longer be illegal. I don’t understand why Israel doesn’t just go ahead and do this.
In short, and stripped of diplomatic niceties - nothing whatsoever useful is going to be accomplished by yet another UN kangaroo court proceeding, whose outcome is as predictable as the sun rising; they should just stop this farce.
I care because my tax dollars are sent to Israel for them to treat the Palestinians like the prawns in District 9. I am ineffably ashamed of my own country for financially supporting Israel. Just as corporations and countries divested from South Africa, we too should stop sending welfare payments to a country that oppresses its own people and giving military equipment that’s used to kill children. This is not what America should stand for. If Israel wants to treat Arabs like prawns or spy on our country, then let them, but don’t take it out of my damned check every two weeks so they can have an easier time doing it.
Once my country stops expending cash to Israel, my level of outrage will subside considerably to that of Somalia: “Dag! That’s bad, thank goodness we’re not involved in that.” Just my two cents. <shrug>
This might actually be literally true - of the money taken from you in tax, two cents goes to Israel. The rest goes to numerous other government expenditures.
Statistics that are true but I admit may be of dubious value:
2008 Federal outlays: $2.983 trillion
2008 Direct Aid to Israel: $2.4 billion
Proportion to Israel: 0.08%
So, if you paid about $25 in federal taxes, two cents goes to Israel. I’ll assume you actually paid a lot more, maybe 500 times that amount.
So that’s your two cents and your ten bucks.
Are things in the West Bank improving economically, more so than Gaza? (That’s not rhetorical, I really do want to know.)
Many people have had the idea of “training” the Palestinians to protest non-violently – for example, Ben Kingsley, who traveled to Palestine with a copy of his movie “Gandhi.” There’s also the International Solidarity Movement, which Rachel Corrie belonged to. I applaud their efforts, but the fact remains that some of the peaceful demonstrations inspired by those efforts were met with lethal force. That’s how at least 2 ISM members were killed (Corrie and Hurndall).
It will be an uphill battle to get the locals to see the efficacy of non-violent protest, and an even greater battle to get the world media to cover it like they covered Birmingham Alabama in 1963 – although it may be worth it in the end. Just one thing, though – non-violent protest works better when the oppressor cares about his public image…and the Israeli govt. has become more or less immune to international opinion.
Which is a good segue to the “international law” portion of our debate! Israel may laugh at the UN and its resolutions, but Israel definitely does care about public opinion in one place in the world: the United States. The reason Israel’s leaders can ignore the UN is precisely because they know they can count on material aid from the US. And I sense that things may be changing here in the good ol’ U of SA…ever so slowly, glacially, but still…Americans can now criticize Israel with less fear than before of being labeled "anti-semitic, " and there is less likelihood of such a charge sticking. And that will affect media coverage, ever so slightly.
But some things have not changed: try to schedule a forum or a play criticizing Israel, and you will be overwhelmed with denunciations, boycott threats and legal threats. That’s why the teachers’ union in Los Angeles, which is normally unafraid of controversy, felt compelled to prohibit an Israel-boycott group from meeting in their building. Free speech has suffered in this country.
I did not care very much for the elder President Bush, but he did do one very brave thing: he got the Israelis to negotiate with the Palestinians by actually delaying material aid – credit guarantees, I believe. I think that is the only time an American President has done such a thing. And he paid the price the next year, when he lost to Bill Clinton. Would Obama ever be so brave as to dangle the carrot above Israel, I wonder?
Bith Shuffle:rolleyes: – the straw man raises his ugly head again, attributing things to me that I did not say. Where did I ever write the words “noble savage”? Again, I say read my OP, especially the part where I acknowledged Palestinian wrongdoing.
No human culture or population is perfect, and almost all of them have deep, disturbing flaws of one sort or another. Where we can point the finger at Muslims regarding their subjugation of women, they can point the finger at us regarding our treatment of the elderly, our throwaway marriages and our seemingly sex-obsessed entertainment and advertising.
Your use of sweeping generalizations and stereotypes is reprehensible. How do you know so much about what Palestinians are like, and what they would do in different circumstances? Have you made an in-depth study of Palestinian or Muslim culture? Have you looked at demographic studies or opinion polls? Do you have a crystal ball, so you can predict alternative futures? What makes you so bloody smart???
To take the Irish parallel a little further: In the 19th century, the Irish and the Irish-Americans were regarded as savages, not “noble” at all. They tended to live in slums (the worst slums in Europe or America), they seemed to have a propensity for violence, their neighborhoods were a source of crime and drunkenness, too many of them were members of secret, conspiratorial societies, they tended to stick together against “outsiders,” and their religion was disturbing and highly suspect. And their political movements committed some unforgiveable atrocities: bombings, assassinations and the like. But their cause of nationhood was just. And once they got 4/5 of their nation back, most of them withdrew from revolutionary politics.
Today, the Irish are “in.” Everybody wants to buy their summer vacation home in Ireland, and everybody digs “Celtic” music and Ceili dancing. We carve Jack O’ Lanterns on Halloween, we pinch each other on Paddy’s Day, and no one accuses us of condoning “terrorist” culture like they did poor Rachael Ray.
If you want to predict the future, look at some more historical analogies – the Irish aren’t the only one. But you can’t win this debate by indulging in stereotypes.
All signs point to the West Bank gradually opening up and becoming at least economically viable.
Gaza, of course, is not having such a re-growth, largely due to the blockade imposed on the region by the IDF.
Given the fact that every time the blockade is loosened or broken, Hamas launches rocket attacks, I would hope that one can see the sense in the need for the blockade.
Great, so you know a racist non-Israeli Jew. This proves so much. :rolleyes:
You do, maybe. I don’t. I suspect you are more willing to count as “racism” things that I’d merely consider criticism.
I don’t believe every ethnic group that wants a state deserves one, sorry. For one, it’s utterly unworkable – in numerous places on the globe, there are multiple groups that claim the same territory, and many people groups that do not have their own state. If the Palestinians were able to police themselves effectively, such that their neighbors were not endangered, I’d be a lot more sympathetic. But when you are not able to exercise de facto control over your territory, you have failed the most basic test of sovereignty.
In most cases, the family and community are complicit. Have you ever seen a news story about a Palestinian mother brokenhearted because her son blew up a schoolbus? Ever seen a profile of a Gaza community troubled by the monster they raised? I haven’t. If you have, please produce one. I have read about mothers, proud of their “martyrs,” getting praised and rewarded for begetting such a hero. Palestinian Children’s TV praises suicide bombing and the killing of Jews. No, not every single person is guilty, but this is not a matter of criminal prosecution (My analogy, as all do breaks down). There were people living in Alabama in 1864 or Germany in 1945 that did not support the governments they lived under. Unfortunately, most of the people did, and the consequences of the majority’s choices affect everyone.
A lot of them pretty much do, and I don’t really blame them. If they want to enact sanctions against the US, or even declare war, there’s nothing to stop them.
The PLO agreed to make changes to their charter. Whether or not they have actually done so is a matter of dispute.
The Palestinians tried nonviolent methods for decades before a single act of terrorism. Any legal or international recourse attempted by them, the Arab states or the predecessors of the Non-Aligned movement were blocked by the US at the UN. Maybe they just looked at Israel, saw a state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and decided that was the way to go.
Gaza is a giant open-air prison. Exactly how do you create a booming economy in those circumstances?
The West Bank has opened up, in the sense that Israel has opened up a few of the hundreds of checkpoints it has in the WB to control everyday life for every Palestinian. Now that the boot has been slightly relaxed from their necks, they’re able to recover a tiny fraction of the economy that could exist with free movement. Gaza is a big prison, with all entry/egress of people, goods etc. controlled by Israel, so trying to compare recent economic development between the two is beyond silly.
The Palestinians have never had any sovereignty or the ability to police themselves.
And why shouldn’t Palestinians venerate their freedom fighters? Why should Israel be allowed to venerate and celebrate their terrorists but not the Palestinians?
If the democratically elected represenatives of the Palestinians in Gaza elect to collaborate like the WB people who have no democratic mandate to represent the Palestinian people, then they’ll swiftly be replaced by people who will not collaborate with Israel. The people are resisting because of the occupation of their land and/or their imprisonment on it, and any credible leaders they have will do the same. Once democracy returns to the West Bank, Israel will reimpose the checkpoints and push the boot down just as hard as before.
Now I’ve answered you you can answer my reply to your original post. Here is is again, RSVP :
The Palestinians tried nonviolent methods for decades before a single act of terrorism. Any legal or international recourse attempted by them, the Arab states or the predecessors of the Non-Aligned movement were blocked by the US at the UN. Maybe they just looked at Israel, saw a state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and decided that was the way to go.
Gaza is a giant open-air prison. Exactly how do you create a booming economy in those circumstances?
Has this happened in the West Bank, the leaderhips being overthrown and such for being too collaborationist? If not, what’s the philisophical difference between the West Bankers and the Gazans?
They will? Without provocation?
Now I’ve answered you you can answer my reply to your original post. Here is is again, RSVP :
The Palestinians tried nonviolent methods for decades before a single act of terrorism. Any legal or international recourse attempted by them, the Arab states or the predecessors of the Non-Aligned movement were blocked by the US at the UN. Maybe they just looked at Israel, saw a state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and decided that was the way to go.
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Well, they stopped short of emulating education, women’s liberation and democracy. And over those decades, the Palestinians may not have been violent (assumed for the sake of arugment) but unfortunately the surrounding Arab states were. I know it sucks when would-be conquerers march across your land and get repelled, but I’m not sure how this is specifically Israel’s fault.
Well, you stop attacking your neighbor for a while. International pressure shifts to your side, Israel falls under pressure to lift the various strangleholds, start up trade and tourism…
