Problematic Moderation: Rico and Curtis LeMay

[Oakminster]

@jtgain

Yes, but there is no right to a jury trial when it comes to this board. If the guy really does have an illness, then I feel sorry for him, but this board isn’t like real life. The mods don’t have to make a special exemption for him because of that.

What if someone has alcoholism and he comes on here every night and posts drunken tirades laced with profanity and personal insults? Should we use the illness of alcoholism to say that we have to put up with it?

Um…every post I’ve made in this thread is staunchly supportive of the mod action regarding Curtis LeMay. Why are you directing this at me?

[Colibri]

@Bosstone

Point is, if you’re given a directive you don’t understand, and especially if you know why you may not be understanding it, then you talk about it. Had Curtis made an effort to understand what he was doing that was earning warnings and reprimands from the mods, that would be one thing. Maybe he would genuinely not be capable of getting it, but he would be trying (or if not trying, then staying away from a community that he’s clearly not meshing with). Blithely ignoring warnings and doing the same thing over and over has absolutely nothing to do with Asperger’s.

Just speaking personally, Curtis made no attempt to contact me after I warned him and told him his posting privileges were in jeopardy, nor did he contact me after I closed any of his threads to protest or ask what the problem was. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn’t made much of an effort to understand what he is doing wrong or to work with the moderation staff.

In my experience, suspensions and bannings are generally not the result of a poster not understanding the rules; they happen when a poster just doesn’t care very much about following the rules or cooperating with the staff.

[Electric_Warrior]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

We’d be sympathetic to someone who is bipolar, but that doesn’t mean that they can set up two usernames (one for up, one for down.)

I don’t know if this thread is the right place to do it, but I want to say that this statement - joking or not - makes no sense, and may be offensive to people who suffer from bipolar disorder.

[ivn1188]

@Colibri

Just speaking personally, Curtis made no attempt to contact me after I warned him and told him his posting privileges were in jeopardy, nor did he contact me after I closed any of his threads to protest or ask what the problem was. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn’t made much of an effort to understand what he is doing wrong or to work with the moderation staff.

In my experience, suspensions and bannings are generally not the result of a poster not understanding the rules; they happen when a poster just doesn’t care very much about following the rules or cooperating with the staff.

This sounds more like he failed to display the “appropriate” deference to you. I realize you claim there is this pattern of “behaviors” etc, but to me (and others) it sounds like the real problem is that you just don’t like him, and you think he needs to toe the line and stop being one of those posters.

[Covered_In_Bees]

@ivn1188

This sounds more like he failed to display the “appropriate” deference to you. I realize you claim there is this pattern of “behaviors” etc, but to me (and others) it sounds like the real problem is that you just don’t like him, and you think he needs to toe the line and stop being one of those posters.

Hasn’t it been adequetely explained that a suspension is not based on the whim of a moderator? It takes a decent amount of discussion among the mods and admins before such a thing can be put into effect?

So at least extend to your post to the whole of the moderation here and not Colibri, who still has my backing (and others’ too).

[bucketybuck]

@ivn1188

This sounds more like he failed to display the “appropriate” deference to you. I realize you claim there is this pattern of “behaviors” etc, but to me (and others) it sounds like the real problem is that you just don’t like him, and you think he needs to toe the line and stop being one of those posters.

Now this is just getting fucking stupid.

[ladyfoxfyre]

@Electric_Warrior

I don’t know if this thread is the right place to do it, but I want to say that this statement - joking or not - makes no sense, and may be offensive to people who suffer from bipolar disorder.

Please, get off your cross. It was a joke, chill the fuck out.

[ivn1188]

@Covered_In_Bees

Hasn’t it been adequetely explained that a suspension is not based on the whim of a moderator? It takes a decent amount of discussion among the mods and admins before such a thing can be put into effect?

So at least extend to your post to the whole of the moderation here and not Colibri, who still has my backing (and others’ too).

No, it hasn’t been explained, other than “He was just being a bad person and he didn’t listen to us”.

Talking about messing with wikipedia shouldn’t be an offense worthy of any sort of punishment, and it isn’t a rules violation except “don’t be a jerk” – which, of course, is extremely subjective and more often than not is applied unfairly. If he violated actual, publicized rules, fine. But this isn’t one of those cases.

I don’t care if they discussed it or not, honestly. The decision is the only thing we can look at. If the decision is so uncontroversial there would not be a 3 page thread on it. I’m sure someone will be along to close the thread anyway. But in any case, there should be no reason to care if people discuss mod actions.

@bucketybuck

Now this is just getting fucking stupid.

For someone supporting the use of the “jerk” rule, you aren’t contributing much, nor being helpful.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

On a messageboard I used to moderate, there was a poster who continually threadshitted (threadshat?), and when warned about it by the moderators defended himself with whiny pleas to respect his Asperger’s. Eventually he went too far and was banned. A member of the board discovered that he’d posted to an Aspie’s messageboard to complain about us and our disrespect for his condition.

The other Aspies handed him his ass. They fucking HATED him for using Asperger’s as an excuse for acting like a jerk. I mean, to a one, they tore him apart. It was pretty impressive.

Another dude I knew on a different messageboard committed a series of identity-theft crimes that combined absolute brilliance with hilarious stupidity. When caught, he defended himself by–you guessed it–claiming his Asperger’s syndrome made him do it.

Amazingly, that didn’t go over well in federal court. He’s gonna be behind bars for a long time.

Having Asperger’s is not an excuse for acting like a dick. Plenty of people with Asperger’s are socially awkward, possess an inflexible moral code, and miss out on a lot of subtleties of communication, but manage to go through life without being a dick. Nothing about the condition makes you be a dick. Being a dick makes you be a dick.

[Bosstone]

@ivn1188

If the decision is so uncontroversial there would not be a 3 page thread on it.

Oh, please. This board has 10 page threads on tipping and how to hold utensils. All it means is that people like to complain on the internet.

In fact, “not listening to the moderators” is more than a valid reason to kick someone out. Now, I’m not talking about obeying or agreeing with the moderators. I’m talking about listening versus ignoring. If someone is given a warning or guidance, they can either follow it or challenge it. What’s not acceptable is simply ignoring it.

[Colibri]

@ivn1188

This sounds more like he failed to display the “appropriate” deference to you. I realize you claim there is this pattern of “behaviors” etc, but to me (and others) it sounds like the real problem is that you just don’t like him, and you think he needs to toe the line and stop being one of those posters.

I don’t think this needs more response other than to say that it is a completely bizarre interpretation of what I said.

[ivn1188]

@Colibri

I don’t think this needs more response other than to say that it is a completely bizarre interpretation of what I said.

I disagree. You said he didn’t show interest in cooperating with you, or learning what mistakes he made. This is different, to me anyway, than showing a disdain for any rules whatsoever.

If not contacting you about his previous warnings is a factor, then it stands to reason that you want him to do so. Which means there is something more going on than the posted policies, which means you’re making a judgment call based on him not cooperating. It’s not bizarre at all.

[Oakminster]

Ya know, the Protest Power Rangers really oughta read *The Boy Who Cried Wolf *sometime.

[ivn1188]

@Oakminster

Ya know, the Protest Power Rangers really oughta read *The Boy Who Cried Wolf *sometime.

:rolleyes:

[BigT]

Gah. Gotta deal with this one. Remember I said I was through? What’s with the asking me direct questions? Anyways,

@Guinastasia

Do you have a link to those threads? Not that I don’t believe you, but I’d like to see them for myself.

You were there in the Mookie pitting (and know my opinion of the pitters). There was also the one on the guy with schitzoaffective disorder. I’m not certain KGS wasn’t pitted for his schitzophrenia. I also happen to visit the SnackPit, which reveals what actually people think, despite how nice they are on here. They’ve actually called for depressed people to hurry up and kill themselves.

I myself have OCD.

See my profile.

However, I don’t want any special treatment from the mods because of it. If I am incapable of following the rules for whatever reason, then that’s my problem, not their’s. Same with Curtis.

When the rules are absolute, I agree. However, a lot of these rulings are subjective, and I think someone’s mental disorder must be taken into account when making such rulings.

The Wikipedia thing is not against the rules in any form. I honestly don’t expect any Aspie to realize that they shouldn’t talk about that. I don’t expect them to know what subjects are contentious, and will stir up problems. I think expecting him to know what particular threads he was starting caused problems is a bit disingenuous,

I think that banning them just makes them think that nobody likes them (something many Aspies think already). The idea that it was because of their actions doesn’t compute instinctively. It has to be spelled out. (Or taught as a social skill).
[/quote]

Your type of argument actually only gives those of us who DO deal with mental disorders a bad name – that we can get away with bad behavior and blame it on our disorders. And what’s to stop people from claiming that they can’t stop being jerks because they have this or that disorder? I believe that was the claim of the infamous Mark Serlin?

Sorry you feel insulted. But that isn’t what I said (or at least what I meant.) I’m pretty sure I’ve covered this already. People with mental disorders shouldn’t be given carte blanche, but they should have their disorder taken into account. If I implied otherwise, I was merely being hyperbolic.

And I know nothing about Mr. Serlin. But I’ll guess he committed the obvious sin of revealing his “disorder” after he was called out on his actions, unlike Curtis who did it offhandedly in a thread about something else entirely. If you want to troll under guise of a disorder, you’ve got to make the proclamation completely obvious. (It’s not like I was around to defend Curtis very often. either, so it’s not like he could depend on me.)

If Curtis IS only thirteen (and quite frankly, a lot of his actions seem to say so to me), then he needs to realize that he’s arguing on a board populated by adults. IF he can’t do so, then he’s not meant to be here. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. But why should WE have to put up with it, just because someone else is incapable of being civil?

Because it’s the right thing to do. I was going to mention this in response to Una (which is where I decided it was too much), but I’ll say it now. I think we, as ethical beings, have an obligation to try and correct the injustices in the world. The reason the world is so unfair is that too many people who notice the unfairness won’t (or don’t think they can) do anything about it.

(Besides, as someone else pointed out, it’s only a SUSPENSION. It’s not a banning. Yeesh)

Given the visceral reaction to his behavior, I don’t think he stands a chance when he comes back. He’s gonna slip up again unless he just isn’t allowed to post polls. <–Hint, hint. There are a lot of actions you can take besides a complete ban, people.

Okay. one more time: his warnings: fine. They show he did wrong, except maybe the one about too many threads. His threads: just shows ignorance of social mores. We should be fighting the ignorance, not the ignorant. We should not throw insults at the guy, even the ones that don’t fall afoul of the rules.

[BigT]

@Oakminster

Ya know, the Protest Power Rangers really oughta read *The Boy Who Cried Wolf *sometime.

I hope I’m not on that list. Lately I’ve been disagreeing with the mods way more than I’ve been agreeing with them. But, check my history. I’ve defended them quite a few times, too.

Anyways, I’m gonna go ahead and post my response to Una as my last response to this thread. IF you have a question about what I said, just find the best possible interpretation, and if you don’t like that, just ignore it. I’ve said what I’ve needed to say.

Originally NOT posted by BigT

@Una_Persson

There are a few problems with this. Number one, we have no idea if he has Asperger’s or any illness at all, unless he posts notarized scans of his medical records; and even that could be faked. In fact, my long experience online has shown me that much more than half of all the people I’ve ever seen online who claimed they had “Asperger’s” or “autism” came to that conclusion via a self-diagnosis (sometimes from a Facebook survey, or all things), and in fact they’re just immature mental midgets with no social skills. Furthermore on this point, the SDMB has been infested with trolls in the past who deliberately and knowingly lied about having a medical condition to justify bad behavior. One of the biggest trolls in the history of the SDMB even faked death, with is quite a more serious illness than Asperger’s.

What trolling did Wally do? Sure, he lied a lot, but when did he do so to stir up board problems? As far as I can tell, his motive for faking his death was to get out of some legal trouble, not to deliberately hurt the posters on the board. He was a jerk (since his intent was to deceive), but I don’t see how he was a troll.

Anyways, I initially judged Curtis being a bit off before the announcement. The announcement itself was in an a thread that was about something else entirely. He didn’t make a big deal out of it. It was more like the typical way I’ve seen autistic and Asperger people throw out their disorder, like it has no social stigma whatsoever, and is just normal everyday chit-chat.

Since then, I started watching for slipups, things that would just seem out of character for an Aspie. I didn’t see any, although, now that I think while I’m typing, maybe the personal insult was one. I’m a bit waffly on that.

@Una

Second, Asperger’s is a poorly diagnosed and poorly understood condition with some serious question as to whether it’s even a separate disorder, let alone the symptoms and severity. How can one tell if an Asperger’s patient is being a jerk because they’re an asshole, or because of their disease?

I’ve seen it in action. In general, people with Autism spectrum disorders find it very hard to be duplicitous. When they are, you can tell quite easily, because they lack the skills to hide it.

@Una

Third, it’s really too damn bad if someone can’t follow the rules due to an alleged medical condition, but that’s life. There cannot be multiple sets of rules for every possible permutation and combination of real or pseudo-scientific mental illness someone can come up with to justify why they’re a jerk.

I hate this argument with a vengeance. If you notice something is wrong in the real world, you don’t get to just ignore that problem elsewhere. In fact, I’d go so far as to say people are ethically required to try and make the system better. Otherwise, they are at fault when the system fails for them (as it inevitably will.)

I might throw the unfair thing out to others to help them deal with their own problems, but I believe this is the suboptimal solution only to be tried when you can’t fix the unfairness itself.

@Una

It’s an impossible burden for the Moderators to even try to take any alleged [mental] illness into account.

And yet they specifically said they do, to a certain extent. It obviously isn’t impossible.

There. Now I’m gonna take advantage of the button that makes this entire thread go away, so I’m not tempted to respond again. Ciao.

[mswas]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

I’m not sure I follow this completely. But I know there is some overlap in board members and wikipedia content-generators.

[cough]Rico[/cough]

[cerberus]

Given his pattern of posting utterly annoying, useless topics, the board is better without him. A middle way would be to restrict his ability to open threads without moderator approval. But part of what distinguishes SDMB from the countless permutations of AOLTeenFuckWit poster-ridden boards is the proper exercise of restraint on the part of its members and guests. A failure on judgment/restraint on the part of posters has the same effect, regardless of the intent of the offending posters.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

Just to repeat in case there’s still confusion: we DO take into account people’s mental state (whether temporary stress or permanent condition) in making judgements, but we have to do it with some caution – the only supporting evidence is the person’s own word for it. Most commonly, when we call someone for troll-like behavior, the true trolls don’t bother to justify themselves, while persons with serious stresses do.* (That’s why, ivn, in this situation, failure to communicate with the mods is indeed a contributing factor.)

• • Of course, some trolls try DO try to justify themselves, often by citing distressing personal problems (including various illnesses, mental and physical) that they really don’t have – but talking about it on Message Boards chalks up more confrontation, people rushing to defend the poor victim, etc. The very essence of trolling! What better ploy than “They’re all picking on me because I’m an orphan!” Thus, the pretense of some mental or physical condition is a fairly common trolling device. That makes life difficult for moderators, trying to determine what the underlying reality is.

[MOIDALIZE]

I don’t believe what anyone says about themselves on the internet.