Pretty much everything you say liberals don’t do, liberals actually do all the time.
Not the Rush Limbaugh fantasy liberals, but real world liberals do all the time.
Please. One only has to read this board to see what I’m talking about.
And I have no idea what Rush Limbaugh says on the issue. :rolleyes:
You just took a question directed at you and turned it around to the people arguing against you without answering it yourself.
I would be interested in your own answer (ETA: and Starving Artist and UberArchetype and anyone else who agrees with you) to the question posed, which I in the past have posed myself to relatively little success. I assume either isolationism or war in the Middle East is a part of it. If not, correct me, please.
If one reads this board, one will find liberals defending Christians and conservatives and others from broad brush attacks.
Pretty mean to be calling Uberarchetype “no one” like that.
Well played. It is indeed difficult to refute a narrative you’ve just made up on the spot and only exists in your head. I certainly won’t attempt to disabuse you of your odd notions.
Playing along, though, I’m sure if any of these imaginary Christians were under actual threat of oppression, as otherwise peaceful muslims are from people like the OP, you and above all Uberarchetype, the story might be somewhat different.
Once again, however, I’m not sure why you are invested in arguing about this topic, given that you are clearly doing nothing whatsoever about it except to bash cartoon “liberals” on a message board. Which is pretty much all you ever do here anyway.
And that’s me done with this pitiful excuse for a thread.
I would just like to point out that not all conservatives are like Starving Artist.
Oh, no worries, I know that. But always remember, all liberals are exactly like whatever Starving Artist imagines they are.
[Moderating]
Don’t tell other posters to fuck themselves.
No warning issued.
[/Moderating]
I wish my wife was still raising goats so that I could use all the straw in your straw man arguments to bed the barn.
No one is “apologising” for Islam. Sensible people are trying to get Islamophobes to stop confusing the extremists of one sect of the religion with the entriety of the religion.
For example, we keep seeing nonsense quoted from Breitbart, (gee, let’s quote the John Birch Society or the Aryan Nation while we’re at it), that relies on lies posted by an Islamophobic group to indicate what “Muslims” “really” want. Or we get claims based on somewhat more legitimate polls in which certain questions about laws present various answers provided as the “real” desire of Muslims the world over–even when Muslims in Muslim majority countries have not actually made any effort to enact such laws, which pretty much shows a serious disconnect between the polls and reality.
When we see violence, proposed and executed by extremists from the Wahhabist sect or a handful of mentally disturbed people following the propaganda of the ISIS extremists, being put forth as the “real” Islam, and we try to respond with facts and logic–we are then accused of being “apologists,” (misusing that word, of course).
Since the simple question has been repeatedly ignored, here is what I imagine the “anti Islam” crowd would want to happen in an ideal world:
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Islam being declared illegal, all immigrants from Islamic countries expelled, and all American mosques demolished.
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An immediate war campaign enacted against Islamic countries, especially the Palestinians and Saudi Arabians. Bomb Mecca into oblivion and take all the oil.
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A government sponsored media campaign loudly and repeatedly declaring Islam and those practicing the Islamic religion as the enemy of the United States, in order to justify one and two above.
I mean, all the opportunities they’ve had to put forth their beliefs, and all the times I and others have asked the question, I have to imagine they’re just plain embarrassed.
Leaper: I don’t have to rely on imagined ideas of what they might want: right wing hate radio hosts have been telling us directly what they want.
On KFI (Los Angeles) the John and Ken Show, John wants any Muslim who commits a crime to be buried in a pig skin with bacon in his mouth. He also wants to “track down” people who sympathize with Islamic Extremism and deport them. When it was pointed out to him that we can’t deport U.S. citizens, he said it was time to just ignore that part of the Constitution.
I’m fascinated that they have actually come right out and said that. The Constitution is not important to them. You sometimes hear the slogan, “The Constitution is not a suicide pact.” They take that to mean that we can ignore any part of it that might interfere with our security.
(These are very often the exact same people who quote Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” They just don’t seem to believe it applies to the religious liberties of Muslims.)
And yes, plenty of people, including yourself, are arguing in defense of controversial Islamic beliefs, principles and practices. These people are known as liberals, hence the thread.
People who like to consider themselves sensible appear to be deliberately focusing on extremists so they can perpetuate the claim that most of the world’s population of Muslims are peace loving and humane, when the poll I posted above shows clearly that mainstream Muslims in most of the world’s most heavily populated and predominantly Muslim countries strongly favor things like stonings, whippings, hand-choppings, death for apostasy, utter subservience to the husband in marriage, etc., etc., etc. In many Muslim countries, support for these practices is in the 80% to 98% range.
And the problem is not one sect and the problem is not limited to terrorist extremists. The problem is that for the overwhelming majority of the world’s Muslims, Islam is a strict, punitive, barbaric, sexist and homophobic religion that enforces fealty by penalty of death, and embraces virtually everything American liberals like to accuse American conservatives of, but about 100 times worse.
Every religion and pretty much every group of people has it’s outliers and extremists. Some people take Christianity too far and they become crackpots like those in the Westboro Baptist Church. Some people take the problems of racism too far and become like Louis Farrakhan. The problem with Islam in regard to extremists is that it’s already so far out there in terms of inflexible, unyielding and barbaric beliefs and practices that people pretty much have to become terrorist crackpots before they can take it too far.
Nowhere else in the world do we see things like honor killings, public whippings of women, hands chopped off for theft, women forced to cover themselves head to toe and unable to leave home unless accompanied by a male relative, forbidden by law to drive cars or obtain schooling. Nowhere else in the world do we see women whipped and jailed for being raped. Nowhere else in the world do we see disapproval rates for gays approaching 100%. It’s only in Islamic countries where these things and worse take place, and they’re not committed by crackpot extremists who take things too far, they’re committed by virtue of the law and sometimes by individual citizens.
I submit that it shows a disconnect between what the people want and what they actually get. Unless of course you’re ready to insist that the board’s liberals stop complaining about and insulting the country’s Christians and conservatives for their attitudes and beliefs provided that they haven’t actually enacted them into law. Because otherwise, you know, none of it matters.
The truth is that people’s attitudes and practices play out in their society in many ways having nothing to do with what laws are on the books. This is precisely the reason there’s so much conflict in this country between its liberal and conservative populace. Each abhors the attitudes and beliefs and practices of the other, no matter what laws are on the books.
And what do you respond with when you see violence and cruelty and subjugation of women and hatred of gays proposed and supported and executed not by extremists but by the majority of mainstream Muslims in the almost all of the world’s predominantly Muslim countries?
Near as I can tell your response is to let your crickets loose.
And again, to call you apologists is entirely appropriate. I refer you again to the definition at the beginning of this post.
That’s only if you were to believe that the only two options here are being either a peace loving hippy or a mouth frothing terrorist. Which is nonsense.
Sure, a lot of Muslim countries are extremely conservative, particularly those in Authoritarian dictatorships… but that’s hardly unique to Islam. You can find those extreme forms of conservatism in Communist countries, Nazi countries, Catholic dictatorships, Ortodox Jews…
Poverty, repression, constant brainwashing- those are the real causes of extremism.
Hopelessness, and a great number of young men with nothing worth doing. And if the vast majority of Muslims were as bloodthirsty as the monsters underneath Starker’s bed, we would already be in a whole lot of trouble.
I know of no countries anywhere in the world where women are forced to cover themselves head to toe, where they can’t drive or get schooling, where they have to be completely subservient to their husbands, where women and occasionally men are whipped in public, where honor killings take place, where women are whipped and imprisoned for being raped, where people’s hands hands are chopped off if they steal something, where people face the possibility of execution for abandoning their religion, etc., except in those where Islam predominates.
Because I certainly don’t know of anywhere in the world, not even in North Korea, China or the former USSR, where these kinds of behaviors, and the attitudes and the beliefs that lead to them, even exist, let alone are commonplace and supported by the populace (and often written into law), other than within the sphere of Islamism.
Again, I’m not talking about extremism. I’m talking about what ordinary, day-to-day life is like within the sphere of Islamism. There are plenty of other places in the world where people are subjected to poverty, repression and brainwashing, and none of them have evolved societies where abuses like those in the Muslim world are commonplace, often written into law, and supported by their citizens.
there are indeed some crazies who want those things, but most people who criticize Islam don’t. The Islam-apologist arguments seem to all rely on strawmen of the most extreme Free Republic posters. No, not everyone who criticizes Islam, wants war, with war being worse to many progressives even at times when it necessary than being attacked. The “warmonger” argument is just a way to shut down debate.
Sane people would argue for the following things:
- Limiting Muslim immigration (but not kicking out anyone already here except proven criminals and Islamist radicals)
- For immigration policies, personal/societal views, social media posts, etc are fair game for people who haven’t entered yet (because they don’t have US constitutional rights until they’re here)
- empower moderate Muslims, as in apostates on LGBT/women/speech/conversion/pro-Israel via asylum (because yes, people with such views are holding views polar opposite extremism, especially that last one), especially those who risk death at fatwas, and protect with security, and give them a platform at the UN, or in our government somehow, or with VOA radio, etc.
- Using brute military force against active terrorist groups wherever they hide.
As I write this there is a terrorist attack ongoing in my city.
Most progressives note correctly that many Muslims face discrimination for reasons of bigotry and they stand against this. Is that not reason enough?
Of course, most westerners of any political bent don’t know jack about Islam or Islamic countries and the discourse that dominates both western conservatives and liberals in terms of how to talk about religion and politics doesn’t fit well when applied to Muslims and Islamic contexts. So that doesn’t help anyone.
Wow. My first trip into The BBQ Pit. Granted, I didn’t read every post in this thread but each one I examined appeared to consist of a logical fallacy (straw man, burden of proof, ad hominem, etc.), if it wasn’t false all together. Why not cite objective evidence and attempt to fashion arguments which demonstrate your positions?
no u
Right off the bat you show something that is not sane.