Pronunciation of the letter "x" in Latin and related languages

[Walken_After_Midnight]

I was reading about how the word raja, a title for a monarch or princely ruler in South and Southeast Asia, is a cognate of the Latin word rex or “king”, meaning both words have a have a common etymological origin. Similarly, maharaja or “great king” is a cognate of the Latin magnum rex.

Then I pondered over the word rex and how it’s pronounced in English today, specifically the “x” part sounding as “ks”. I recalled how “x” in Portuguese, a Romance language deriving from Vulgar Latin, can be pronounced as “s”, “sh” or “z”, which are closer to the “j” of raja than the “ks” of rex. It may be that it’s similar in Spanish - for example, the name of the Spanish footballer Xavi is pronounced as somewhere between “Javi” and “Shavi”.

The letter “x” also has an association with Christ. It looks like a cross, and can be used as a substitute for the word “Christ”, such as in Xmas. “Christ” also sounds a bit like the “ks” pronunciation of “x”.

So my questions are about the pronunciation of the letter “x” in Latin and related languages. How was “x” pronounced by ancient Romans? How come “x” can sound like “ks”, yet also sound like “s”, “sh”, “z” and “j”? Why is there even a single letter - “x”, in English - that is basically two consonants merged together - “k” and “s”?

[DavidwithanR]

Just to further muddy things, the X in Xmas isn’t even an X - it’s a copy of the Greek letter chi, which is the first letter of “Xriste” (obviously I didn’t type real Greek but you know what I mean).

[Rick_Kitchen]

In Mexican Spanish, under the influence of Aztec, the x is pronounced like sh. The flower gardens in Mexico City, Xochimilco, are pronounced as Shochimilco.

[DPRK]

Not an authoritative answer: classical Latin spelling is reasonably phonetic (though there is an important difference between long and short vowels), and “x” is pronounced “ks”.

Now, it’s pretty obvious that an older spelling of “rex” is “regs” (cf. the genitive “regis”; according to Wikipedia the consonant cluster ks was also variously spelled ks, cs, and xs, the letter “x” itself borrowed from Greek, and note that “g” is a variant of “c”), and that as you go farther back in time Latin spelling becomes increasingly far out and the alphabet itself shifts. Perhaps someone can give a fuller account.

But if we focus on classical Latin, the answer is that “x” was not pronounced “sh”, “j”, and so on. Why is the same letter pronounced differently in modern Italian, ecclesiastical Latin, in English, and so on? These things evolve over time, which is easy to say, but a linguist should be able to give a detailed traceback.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@DavidwithanR

Just to further muddy things, the X in Xmas isn’t even an X - it’s a copy of the Greek letter chi, which is the first letter of “Xriste” (obviously I didn’t type real Greek but you know what I mean).

What is the pronunciation of “Xriste”? Since it’s using an “x” (chi) from the Greek alphabet, rather than a “k” (kappa), I’m assuming it’s something like “Hriste” - or “Khriste”, with a silent “h”.

@Rick_Kitchen

In Mexican Spanish, under the influence of Aztec, the x is pronounced like sh. The flower gardens in Mexico City, Xochimilco, are pronounced as Shochimilco.

And the “x” pronounced as an “h” in Mexico.

And what about the “x” and “q” in Chinese transliteration, prounced in English as “ch” or “sh”? Such as Qin Shi Huang or Xi Jinping? Are they even the same letter?

[Acsenray]

@Walken_After_Midnight

What is the pronunciation of “Xriste”? Since it’s using an “x” (chi) from the Greek alphabet, rather than a “k” (kappa), I’m assuming it’s something like “Hriste” - or “Khriste”, with a silent “h”.

And the “x” pronounced as an “h” in Mexico.

And what about the “x” and “q” in Chinese transliteration, prounced in English as “ch” or “sh”? Such as Qin Shi Huang or Xi Jinping? Are they even the same letter?

Pinyin took the “extra” letters from the Latin alphabet — Q, X — and repurposed them.

[Itself]

@Walken_After_Midnight

What is the pronunciation of “Xriste”? Since it’s using an “x” (chi) from the Greek alphabet, rather than a “k” (kappa), I’m assuming it’s something like “Hriste” - or “Khriste”, with a silent “h”.

The aspirated series of stops χ [k[SUP]h[/SUP]], φ [p[SUP]h[/SUP]], θ [t[SUP]h[/SUP]] in classical Greek have become fricatives ~[ç], [f], [θ] in modern Greek.

And what about the “x” and “q” in Chinese transliteration, prounced in English as “ch” or “sh”? Such as Qin Shi Huang or Xi Jinping? Are they even the same letter?

In Pinyin, at least, j and q represent [t͡ɕ] and [t͡ɕ[SUP]h[/SUP]], respectively. They’re completely distinct phonemes, just like English [k] and [g]. Pinyin x respresents [ɕ]. (The phonemes x [ɕ] and sh [ʂ] are also distinct, although they sound similar to me as a native English speaker. Not as bad as Polish [ɕ] versus [ʃ], at least.)

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@DPRK

Now, it’s pretty obvious that an older spelling of “rex” is “regs” (cf. the genitive “regis”; according to Wikipedia the consonant cluster ks was also variously spelled ks, cs, and xs, the letter “x” itself borrowed from Greek, and note that “g” is a variant of “c”), and that as you go farther back in time Latin spelling becomes increasingly far out and the alphabet itself shifts. Perhaps someone can give a fuller account.

Looking at the etymology of rex on wiktionary, it is shown to derive from the Proto-Indo-European *h₃rḗǵs (“ruler, king”). I don’t know how that’s pronounced, but it looks as if it could be “hregs”. One could see how that could evolve into both rex (“reks”) and also “raja”, if the “g” is pronounced as a “j”, something that does happen for reasons I know not - compare the “g” in the words “regal” and “regicide”.

[DPRK]

@Walken_After_Midnight

What is the pronunciation of “Xriste”? Since it’s using an “x” (chi) from the Greek alphabet, rather than a “k” (kappa), I’m assuming it’s something like “Hriste” - or “Khriste”, with a silent “h”.

@Wiktionary

(5th BCE Attic) IPA: /kʰriːs.tós/
(1st CE Egyptian) IPA: /kʰrisˈtos/
(4th CE Koine) IPA: /xrisˈtos/
(10th CE Byzantine) IPA: /xrisˈtos/
(15th CE Constantinopolitan) IPA: /xrisˈtos/

And the “x” pronounced as an “h” in Mexico.

And what about the “x” and “q” in Chinese transliteration, prounced in English as “ch” or “sh”? Such as Qin Shi Huang or Xi Jinping? Are they even the same letter?

You mean in Pinyin Romanization? It’s definitely closer to a Portuguese “x” rather than Latin or Greek. “q” and “x” (and “j”) are not all the same letter in Pinyin.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@Acsenray

Pinyin took the “extra” letters from the Latin alphabet — Q, X — and repurposed them.

Did the Romans not use X, other than as the number ten?

@Itself

In Pinyin, at least, j and q represent [t͡ɕ] and [t͡ɕ[SUP]h[/SUP]], respectively. They’re completely distinct phonemes, just like English [k] and [g]. Pinyin x respresents [ɕ]. (The phonemes x [ɕ] and sh [ʂ] are also distinct, although they sound similar to me as a native English speaker. Not as bad as Polish [ɕ] versus [ʃ], at least.)

Hindi has similar issues for non-native speakers, with different letters and pronunciation for “ka” and “kha”, “ga” and “gha”, “ja” and “jha”, "ta and “tha”, “da” and “dha”, “pa” and “pha”, and “ba” and “bha”.

[EdelweissPirate]

X is pronounced differently in different languages because they all have different phonetic and orthographic conventions. I don’t see a reason for any two Latin-alphabet languages that both pronounce the same letters the same way, even if those two languages are both Romance languages. Certainly in English (and almost certainly in other languages) the idea of “conventional spelling” didn’t really exist until after the invention of the printing press. So people made it up as they went along, and that makes any expectation of consistency unrealistic.

But I think part of the problem here boils down to poorly-educated choir directors. I’m not kidding, even a little bit. It’s true that “excelsis” is pronounced “eggshellsis” in ecclesiastical Latin. I took a choir class in a secular high school, and our choir director rigidly insisted that “gloria in excelsis deo” be pronounced in accordance with church latin, which is appropriate for that context. But this choir director was certain that “x is pronounced ‘sh’ in Latin,’” full stop.

In hindsight, it’s clear that our choir director knew jack shit about Latin; he didn’t even know enough to know that he didn’t know. So he repeated a half-truth he had been taught and many students generally accepted what he said. But choir directors are not language scholars or classicists. I wouldn’t be shocked if more Americans were exposed to Latin via choirs than via classical Latin classes. No matter the genesis, lots of people are certain that lots of other people have it wrong. They’re both right; one set is right for ecclesiastical Latin and another set is right for classical Latin.

It’s pretty human to think that there’s one right way to use language, especially when you’ve spent a dozen years in school having your wrong usage/grammar/syntax corrected by teachers. But language is fluid and changes with time and context, even if we don’t expect it to. One of my [Attic] Greek professors used to tell stories about traveling in Greece and talking to Greeks who thought they understood Attic Greek because they could pick out some familiar words.

This is similar to how many English speakers naively-but-reasonably expect to open up Canterbury Tales and read middle English. It’s broadly similar to modern English, but it’s not nearly as comprehensible as, say, Shakespeare. The Great Vowel Shift was a thing, so modern English-speakers can’t just pick up Chaucer and run with it.

We even do this within contemporary language via code-switching. I’ll never forget how my first girlfriend, who was from Texas but had no Texan accent, suddenly developed a hell of a twang when she was pulled over by a Texas state trooper who had a similar drawl himself. How many syllables does “you all” have? Well, that depends on who is talking to whom.

The OP’s question is totally reasonable, but given all of the variation in pronunciation within a single language, I don’t think you can expect any consistency between languages, even closely related ones.

Edit: I’m not saying the OP is the sort to naively expect to read middle English or anything patronizing like that. I was just trying to point out that it’s common for people in general to underestimate how much variation there is in phonetics and orthography within a single language.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@EdelweissPirate

X is pronounced differently in different languages because they all have different phonetic and orthographic conventions. I don’t see a reason for any two Latin-alphabet languages that both pronounce the same letters the same way, even if those two languages are both Romance languages. Certainly in English (and almost certainly in other languages) the idea of “conventional spelling” didn’t really exist until after the invention of the printing press. So people made it up as they went along, and that makes any expectation of consistency unrealistic.

I was thinking how “x” is like the Letter X of letters, in that it appears it can be pretty much anything, like a placeholder for an unknown (as in Planet X etc).

Then I thought about mathematics and how it also uses an x to represent an unknown quantity. And then I thought about how x marks the spot, but that may just have been because of your username…

[dtilque]

@Acsenray

Pinyin took the “extra” letters from the Latin alphabet — Q, X — and repurposed them.

@Walken_After_Midnight

Did the Romans not use X, other than as the number ten?

What was meant was that Chinese didn’t have sounds that corresponded to how Latin, English, and other European languages used the X and Q, so they used the letters for sounds that were unrelated.

As Itself says above, X (chi) in Classical Greek was an aspirated K. Aspiration is a distinguising feature of phonemes in that language, but it isn’t in Latin. So Latin, when it adopted the alphabet, either converted aspirated letters to other sounds (chi -> /ks/) or dropped the letters altogether (theta and phi). English, when borrowing Greek words with those letters, adds an H after the unaspirated letter: ph in physics; ch in chrome; th in thermometer. However, we don’t pronounce them as aspirated letters.

[Hari_Seldon]

Languages change, that’s all there is to it. I assume that X is pronounced as ks in Latin as is, AFAIK, Xi in classical Greek. But these things change. And in different places they change in different ways. Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Romansch, Catalan (as well as the Langue d’Oc spoken in southern France), Gruyerian (yes there is such a language spoken by the cheese makers in Gruyere) are all descendants of Latin and all rather different.

[Johanna]

@Walken_After_Midnight

Looking at the etymology of rex on wiktionary, it is shown to derive from the Proto-Indo-European *h₃rḗǵs (“ruler, king”). I don’t know how that’s pronounced, but it looks as if it could be “hregs”. One could see how that could evolve into both rex (“reks”) and also “raja”, if the “g” is pronounced as a “j”, something that does happen for reasons I know not - compare the “g” in the words “regal” and “regicide”.

(Preface: Feel free to ignore the h with a small number after it unless you’re a specialist in linguistics. They’re called laryngeals; they’re useful in studying the Anatolian branch of Indo-European or tracing their influence in a few historical phonological processes after they’ve disappeared. If your field of study doesn’t include these things, you’re better off skipping over them altogether. So proceeding with laryngeal symbols turned off…)

The word *rḗǵs itself is derived from the root *reǵ- ‘to move in a straight line; to direct in a straight line, to lead, to rule’ or ‘to straighten’. The vowel lengthening and accenting and the addition of masculine singular declension ending -s turn it into the noun for a leader/ruler. The proto-Indo-European sound of /ǵ/ underwent transformations in IE daughter languages:

In Latin the original /g/ persisted in declined forms like genitive case regis (king’s), as well as feminine regina and all those words like “regulate.”. Otherwise the unvoiced -s right after it simply influenced the g to become its unvoiced equivalent, /k/, and then /ks/ is represented by “x” in Latin.

In Sanskrit it became the palatal affricate sound of the “j” in raja. It did later in English, too, since the sound of “g” in the English pronunciation of “Regis” turned out to be the same sound as in raja.

In Germanic the proto /g/ became /k/. Proto-Indo-European *rḗǵs became proto-Germanic *rīks ‘king, ruler’, which is the origin of German Reich.

English right and German recht derive from another proto-Germanic form: *rehtaz, where the “h” stands for the velar fricative sound /x/. (The sound of “ch” in “Bach.”) This comes from *reǵtós, literally ‘straightened’, the same Proto-Indo-European root *reǵ- with a -t suffix used to make an adjective of completed action.

[Johanna]

What *reǵtós became in Latin is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Johanna]

@Acsenray

Pinyin took the “extra” letters from the Latin alphabet — Q, X — and repurposed them.

Any letter that isn’t otherwise being used can become a wildcard when you design an alphabet. Pinyin was designed. So was Fijian spelling, to take one other example. “C” is another letter that otherwise lacks inherent pronunciation for many languages, so it’s subject to many different repurposings.

In Fijian, “c” was just standing around with its hands in its pockets, idle, so they pressganged it for the sound /ð/ (which is represented in English by the “th” in breathe but not in breath). “C” had never been associated with /ð/ anywhere, but who cares? It was useful for Fijian that way and it would have gone to waste otherwise. The Fijian alphabet also did a number on “g” and “q” similarly. They never did find a use for “x”.

[JKellyMap]

@Johanna

What *reǵtós became in Latin is left as an exercise for the reader.

Only funny in the neuter form.

[bob_2]

@EdelweissPirate

This is similar to how many English speakers naively-but-reasonably expect to open up Canterbury Tales and read middle English. It’s broadly similar to modern English, but it’s not nearly as comprehensible as, say, Shakespeare. The Great Vowel Shift was a thing, so modern English-speakers can’t just pick up Chaucer and run with it.

For anyone interested here is a modern attempt at reading Chaucer.

- YouTube

[MandaJo]

@DavidwithanR

Just to further muddy things, the X in Xmas isn’t even an X - it’s a copy of the Greek letter chi, which is the first letter of “Xriste” (obviously I didn’t type real Greek but you know what I mean).

To muddy it further: it’s not a chi, but a Chi Ro:

Chi Rho

It implies both the Chi and the Rho sounds.