Proof of Jesus?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Sweet Willy *
**

So God doesn’t have a standard for Jews? This is confusing. If you convert it would seem to me that God would have an acceptable way to do so and those outside his guide lines are out. So who is right and who is wrong? Which converts are Jews in Gods eyes and which ones have been misled. You seem to think that God is OK with someone just acting and living as a Jew. I think most Jews would disagree. If I make my own guide for conversion, like the different Jewish groups have, and convert by my standards, will God put my name on the list?

**

There is a standard. There has been a standard for the last three thousand years. The fact that Reform Judaism decided, in the last fifty years or so to change their opinion changes things not one whit. And since we’re talking about the messiah in this thread, I should point out that Reform Judaism doesn’t believe in the concept of a messiah anyway. So, in the context of this discussion, the decisions of Reform Judaism re: the status of converts when the messiah comes, is meaningless.

I’ve given you the Orthodox answer. If you’re not happy with that, well, then there’s nothing I can do for you. If you’re going to bring up the position of Reform Judaism, then ask a Reform Jew.

**
Well if you don’t know just say so Zev. You shouldn’t lead people to believe that you know what you are talking about and then shrug at my question. If you truely don’t know then I think I will just claim to be a Jew until someone comes along to prove otherwise.

**

And you are deliberately confusing two issues. I don’t know every detail of what is going to happen when the messiah comes. I never claimed that I did. All I did was present what Maimonides said on the subject.

OTOH, I do know about who is a Jew and who isn’t.

Lastly, with regard to you wanting to call yourself a Jew, I present you with the following:

Q: If you call it’s tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
A: 4. Just because you call it a leg doesn’t mean it is one.

**
So you really don’t know do you? You are waiting for something to happen but you don’t what it is or how or when it will happen. All you seem to know is that something will happen. I know that something will happen sometime. Do you have anything useful to add?

**

As I said before, I never claimed to know every detail. Bottom line: When I see an ingathering of the exiles and the Temple being rebuilt, I’ll know things are on the right track. If that’s not specific enough for you, well, then there’s nothing more I can do for you.

**
Right. But you accept non - observant people based on ancestry. This gets us back to a hard fact that is based on real world relationships of actual human beings, not ancient, vague, prophets, real world problems of racist attitudes. What makes a non observant ancestry based Jew any different than good ol’ non observant me?

**

I don’t want to go down this road again with you. You’ve stated your opinion. We’ve told you you’re wrong. You refuse to accept what we’ve told you. So we agree to disagree. Finished. However, considering that I am far more of a scholar on Judaism than you are, I think my opinion tends to carry a little more weight.

**
Yeah, it does sound kinda silly doesn’t it Zev? God must be a real prankster. Sending down Elijah in a chariot of fire while playing a game of guess who is coming to dinner with the savior. BTW, I have some ocean front property in Arizona. You interested? **

Well, if you don’t like it, guess what? You’re not required to belive in it. And no one is asking you to.

Zev Steinhardt

[Sweet_Willy]

I’ve given you the Orthodox answer. If you’re not happy with that, well, then there’s nothing I can do for you. If you’re going to bring up the position of Reform Judaism, then ask a Reform Jew.

So Zev, from the Ortodox POV, what does God think of the reformers who are Jew by ancestry? What does he think of the Jews converted by the reformers? If they have twisted Gods will I would think he is a bit miffed at them.

And you are deliberately confusing two issues. I don’t know every detail of what is going to happen when the messiah comes. I never claimed that I did. All I did was present what Maimonides said on the subject.

OTOH, I do know about who is a Jew and who isn’t.

Lastly, with regard to you wanting to call yourself a Jew, I present you with the following:

Q: If you call it’s tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
A: 4. Just because you call it a leg doesn’t mean it is one.

So do you believe what Maimonides said? If so why? Was there something that we can point to that validates his opinion? If you do know who is a Jew, please tell us. It is in great debate and we would be grateful to you. Finally, am I a Jew Zev?

I don’t want to go down this road again with you. You’ve stated your opinion. We’ve told you you’re wrong. You refuse to accept what we’ve told you. So we agree to disagree. Finished. However, considering that I am far more of a scholar on Judaism than you are, I think my opinion tends to carry a little more weight.
.

No not finished by a long shot. You accept that any low life born of Jewish descent is a Jew and bestowe certain things upon him. Any other low life is disqualified based on ancestry. You want it finished because you can’t defend your racist mentality.

Well, if you don’t like it, guess what? You’re not required to belive in it. And no one is asking you to.

Zev Steinhardt

I am not about to believe it if you did ask me to. I am attempting to have reason prevail over absoloutely ridiculous ideas like a three thousand year old man descending to the earth on a chariot made of fire. Do you really believe that Zev? If you do, I feel the need to let anyone who is considering listening to you know that you might be a tad off somewhere upstairs. People don’t live to that age and if they did, riding inside a flamimg chariot down from heaven wouldn’t be a good idea for someone of that age.

[ice1000]

zev, so you do agree that there’s going to be at least one major war? What about the non-violent doctrine? Is that only for the Christian messiah?

He just has to do those things you mentioned right? Anything else is up to Him, like miracles and such? Is the messiah capable of performing miracles?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Sweet Willy *
**
So Zev, from the Ortodox POV, what does God think of the reformers who are Jew by ancestry?

**

What does He think of the reformers? I can’t tell you. I’m not God. However, Jewish law does not look upon them favorably.

That, however, is to the distinction of those who were raised under Reform Judaism. These people (which include the vast majority of Reform Jews today) have a status of a “kidnapped infant” (i.e. one that was raised without knowledge of the Torah, and, as such, cannot be expected to keep it).

**
What does he think of the Jews converted by the reformers?

**

Again. I’m not God and I am not going to presume to tell you what is on His mind.

However, as far as Jewish law goes, they are not Jews.

**
If they have twisted Gods will I would think he is a bit miffed at them.

**

The actual founders of the Reform movement? I might venture that you are probably correct.

**
So do you believe what Maimonides said? If so why? Was there something that we can point to that validates his opinion?

**

Yes, I believe in what Maimonides said. His views were accepted at authoritative by Orthodox Judaism centuries ago.

**
If you do know who is a Jew, please tell us.

**

Asked and answered many times for you already. One born of a Jewish mother, or converted according to halacha.

**
It is in great debate and we would be grateful to you.

**

You’re welcome.

**
Finally, am I a Jew Zev?

**

Asked and answered many times for you already. No.

**
No not finished by a long shot. You accept that any low life born of Jewish descent is a Jew and bestowe certain things upon him.
Any other low life is disqualified based on ancestry. You want it finished because you can’t defend your racist mentality.

**

What are you blabbering about? If you want to become Jewish there is nothing stopping you. Nor is there anything stopping anyone else. No one is disqualified on the basis of ancestry.

**
I am not about to believe it if you did ask me to. I am attempting to have reason prevail over absoloutely ridiculous ideas like a three thousand year old man descending to the earth on a chariot made of fire. Do you really believe that Zev? If you do, I feel the need to let anyone who is considering listening to you know that you might be a tad off somewhere upstairs. People don’t live to that age and if they did, riding inside a flamimg chariot down from heaven wouldn’t be a good idea for someone of that age. **

Yes I believe that Elijah will come. If you wish to consider me “a tad off somewhere upstairs” for that belief, so be it. You’re free to believe what you want.

Zev Steinhardt

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by ice1000 *
**
He just has to do those things you mentioned right? Anything else is up to Him, like miracles and such? Is the messiah capable of performing miracles? **

There’s nothing about the messiah that suggests he’ll be able to perform miracles, and miracle working isn’t neccesary to make somebody a messiah.

There’s also nothing about the messiah that suggests he’ll be non-violent.

I think part of the problem is that the word “messiah” is, as Isaac Asimov once said about something else in one of his essays, a “word lost in the non-translation”. You hear “messiah” and a lot of people think of Jesus, and the Christian meaning…a non-violent miracle worker who brings salvation.

A better thing to think about when you hear the word “messiah” is “king”, because that’s really what the connotations of the word is. A messiah means “Someone annointed with oil”, which is what you do to kings during their coronation. The messiah is going to be a temporal ruler…he’s going to be a good one…he’s going to obey G-d’s law, and through his example, all other Jews will too. He’ll set up a Jewish state and rebuild the temple, and rule fairly and justly. The thing to remember, though, is, that’s what he’ll do. He won’t be a miracle worker, or save people from damnation, or anything like that.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by ice1000 *
**zev, so you do agree that there’s going to be at least one major war?

**

It would seem from Ezekiel 38 that there will be one. However, it need not be a “world war.” It could just as easily be a war confined to the Middle East.

**
What about the non-violent doctrine? Is that only for the Christian messiah?

**

The messiah will usher in an age of peace, but, I would guess that would come after the war.

**
He just has to do those things you mentioned right? Anything else is up to Him, like miracles and such? Is the messiah capable of performing miracles? **

He could perform miracles, if God wanted. However, performance of miracles does not make one a messiah.

Zev Steinhardt

[ice1000]

Ohh OK. I gathered that there was a vast difference between the Christian definition and the Jewish definition of the messiah. Thanks for clearing that up.

So the Jewish messiah is just going to be a normal guy that’s able to peform the duties Zev mentioned? Well, he might do them, since he has free will. Wether he does or not, I guess we’ll have to see, won’t we?

What if two people in conjunction manage to do everything Zev stated? They achieved the correct ends, but through unforseen methods. Can there be two messiahs?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by ice1000 *
**Ohh OK. I gathered that there was a vast difference between the Christian definition and the Jewish definition of the messiah. Thanks for clearing that up.

So the Jewish messiah is just going to be a normal guy that’s able to peform the duties Zev mentioned? Well, he might do them, since he has free will. Wether he does or not, I guess we’ll have to see, won’t we?

**

If he doesn’t do then, by definition, he isn’t the messiah and we continue to wait.

**
What if two people in conjunction manage to do everything Zev stated? They achieved the correct ends, but through unforseen methods. Can there be two messiahs? **

No.

Zev Steinhardt

[Sweet_Willy]

What does He think of the reformers? I can’t tell you. I’m not God. However, Jewish law does not look upon them favorably.

That, however, is to the distinction of those who were raised under Reform Judaism. These people (which include the vast majority of Reform Jews today) have a status of a “kidnapped infant” (i.e. one that was raised without knowledge of the Torah, and, as such, cannot be expected to keep it).

So Zev, where does the Jewish law come from? Shouldn’t it give a good scholar an idea about what God thinks of reformers or converts? I mean you guys didn’t write a bunch of laws about what God expects without consulting God did you? If Jewish law reflects Gods will towards Jews and Hewish law looks unfavorably upon reformers doesn’t that gives a clue about the reformers and what God might think of them?

Again. I’m not God and I am not going to presume to tell you what is on His mind.

However, as far as Jewish law goes, they are not Jews.

So again, by your logic, Jewish law doesn’t reflect what God expects of Jews? Why is it presented in that manner then? That sounds misleading and dishonest.

The actual founders of the Reform movement? I might venture that you are probably correct.

So in this case you do venture a guess at what is on Gods mind. How about some consistentcy here Zev? Do you know what God thinks or not. Floundering so confuses people about what you really know about the subject.

Yes, I believe in what Maimonides said. His views were accepted at authoritative by Orthodox Judaism centuries ago.

Not very convincing. Did he have any history of mental illness, alcoholism, etc? What do we know about him other than his writings? Who were the people in Orthodox Judaism that accepted his writings? Are they trustworthy sources?

Asked and answered many times for you already. One born of a Jewish mother, or converted according to halacha.

Well, I got several different answers. Not all Jews agree on who is a Jew. The conversion process is in great debate.

quote:

Finally, am I a Jew Zev?

---

Asked and answered many times for you already. No.

This is a really good one Zev. Please tell me how you know I am not a Jew. I have questioned alot of people here and have alot of answers but as far as I know, you don’t know who my ancestors are. How do you come to a conclusion about me ? Are you guessing? You might be well surprised.

What are you blabbering about? If you want to become Jewish there is nothing stopping you. Nor is there anything stopping anyone else. No one is disqualified on the basis of ancestry.

Never said anyone was disqualified and you know it. People are qualified based on ancestry. You have yet to learn the difference in discrimination and racism.

Yes I believe that Elijah will come. If you wish to consider me “a tad off somewhere upstairs” for that belief, so be it. You’re free to believe what you want.

Zev Steinhardt

Zev, if you truely believe that a three thousand year old man is coming to earth on a chariot of fire, I have to think that your religious beliefs have short circuted your logical mind. Until that happens, I and many others are quite justified in thinking that you must be off your rocker.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Sweet Willy *
**
So Zev, where does the Jewish law come from? Shouldn’t it give a good scholar an idea about what God thinks of reformers or converts? I mean you guys didn’t write a bunch of laws about what God expects without consulting God did you? If Jewish law reflects Gods will towards Jews and Hewish law looks unfavorably upon reformers doesn’t that gives a clue about the reformers and what God might think of them?

So again, by your logic, Jewish law doesn’t reflect what God expects of Jews? Why is it presented in that manner then? That sounds misleading and dishonest.

**

In that respect, you are right. I would believe, based on Jewish law, that He does not think highly of the founders of the Reform movement. Happy?

**
So in this case you do venture a guess at what is on Gods mind. How about some consistentcy here Zev? Do you know what God thinks or not. Floundering so confuses people about what you really know about the subject.

**

Based on Jewish law, I told you what I believe God thinks.

**
Not very convincing. Did he have any history of mental illness,

**

No

**
alcoholism, etc?

**

No. No.

**
What do we know about him other than his writings? Who were the people in Orthodox Judaism that accepted his writings?
Are they trustworthy sources?

**

Yes. Ask any Orthodox Jew today if Maimonides is an authoritative source.

**
Well, I got several different answers. Not all Jews agree on who is a Jew. The conversion process is in great debate.

**

Yes, not all Jews agree on who is a Jew. But all groups accept converts. There is not a single group who says “we don’t accept any converts.”

**
This is a really good one Zev. Please tell me how you know I am not a Jew.

**

You started a thread stating that you wished to become a Jew. The implication from that is that you are not one.

**
I have questioned alot of people here and have alot of answers but as far as I know, you don’t know who my ancestors are. How do you come to a conclusion about me ? Are you guessing? You might be well surprised.

**

Fine. If you’re Jewish then you’re Jewish. Why are you asking me if you’re Jewish?

**
Never said anyone was disqualified and you know it.

**

I refer you to your earlier post when you said:

Any other low life is disqualified based on ancestry

**
People are qualified based on ancestry.

**

Or conversion.

**
You have yet to learn the difference in discrimination and racism.

**

ROTFL!

**
Zev, if you truely believe that a three thousand year old man is coming to earth on a chariot of fire, I have to think that your religious beliefs have short circuted your logical mind. Until that happens, I and many others are quite justified in thinking that you must be off your rocker. **

You are entitled to think that. You may proclaim it to anyone you wish. If that’s the case, of course, then you maintain that all Jews (who wait for Elijah) and all Christians (who wait for Jesus’ return) to be nuts. If so, then so be it. We’re all nuts.

Zev Steinhardt

[ice1000]

Zev, so if two people manage to fill the tasks set forth. Neither will be the messiah. You will still await his arrival. Suppose he arrives, then he has nothing left to accomplish! How will you know him?

I bring this up not out of sarcasm but I want to know how much, if any, measure of interpretation is left up to current Judaic scholars.

[zev_steinhardt]

ice1000,

We have it on tradition that one person will accomplish all the tasks.

Zev Steinhardt

[Sweet_Willy]

In that respect, you are right. I would believe, based on Jewish law, that He does not think highly of the founders of the Reform movement. Happy?

Well maybe. First you claim not to know what God thinks then you say maybe you do. Do you or don’t you Zev? If you don’t know what God thinks I suggest that you refrain from telling others what Gods plan for us is. If you do know please provide verifiable proof of Gods intentions.

Based on Jewish law, I told you what I believe God thinks.

You are being evasive and vague. If you are here answering questions about God i suggest you get your facts straight. Who wrote the laws? Are they Gods will or did someone guess at what Gods will is? Is Jewish law based on Gods will or is Gods will based on Jewish law? Sounds like you are using Jewish law to interpet Gods will. If so, what made you believe it is so?

quote:

Not very convincing. Did he have any history of mental illness,

---

No
quote:

alcoholism, etc?

---

No. No.

Can you give us his dates of birth, death, character references, attending physicians etc.? Not people of today, people who knew him and wrote of him.

Yes, not all Jews agree on who is a Jew. But all groups accept converts. There is not a single group who says “we don’t accept any converts.”

Yes, this is a problem. There are alot of converts walking around thinking they are Jewish when they may or may not be. We need to know don’t we? There is alot riding on being Jewish.

You started a thread stating that you wished to become a Jew. The implication from that is that you are not one.

Assumptions get you into trouble. You earlier claimed to know about who the Jews are. Do you or don’t you? You seem confused. Are you working with truth here or are spinning fairy tales?

Fine. If you’re Jewish then you’re Jewish. Why are you asking me if you’re Jewish?

Because you said this;

OTOH, I do know about who is a Jew and who isn’t.

Are you delusional or just telling fibs? If you know who is a Jew, I ask you again, am I a Jew? Just tell the truth Zev.

I refer you to your earlier post when you said:

quote:

Any other low life is disqualified based on ancestry

quote:

People are qualified based on ancestry.

---

Or conversion.

You see what I meant by low life is someone who would never make conversion. The same lowlife of Jewish descent is qualified as a Jew even though he is smoking from the same crack stem.

We’re all nuts.

Zev Steinhardt

Make sure you state this up front before you enter anymore threads and advise people on divine matters. Some folks are pretty gullible and will stand around looking for a blazing chariot with a slightly charred 3,000 year old man in it.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Sweet Willy *
**
Well maybe. First you claim not to know what God thinks then you say maybe you do. Do you or don’t you Zev? If you don’t know what God thinks I suggest that you refrain from telling others what Gods plan for us is. If you do know please provide verifiable proof of Gods intentions.

You are being evasive and vague. If you are here answering questions about God i suggest you get your facts straight. Who wrote the laws? Are they Gods will or did someone guess at what Gods will is? Is Jewish law based on Gods will or is Gods will based on Jewish law? Sounds like you are using Jewish law to interpet Gods will. If so, what made you believe it is so?

**

First of all, I never claimed to have any proof, nor did I claim I was presenting anything that can be empirically proven. Hell, I don’t think God’s existence can be empirically proven. So everything that I am telling you is based on Jewish law and tradition. If that’s not good enough for you, then I’m sorry.

**
Can you give us his dates of birth, death, character references, attending physicians etc.? Not people of today, people who knew him and wrote of him.

**

1135-1204. He was so well-liked and considered such a scholar that the Egyptian Jewish community (he lived in Egypt) mourned three full days for him. He himself was a physician.

**
Yes, this is a problem. There are alot of converts walking around thinking they are Jewish when they may or may not be. We need to know don’t we? There is alot riding on being Jewish.

**

What is riding on it? When the messiah comes, we will know who is Jewish and who isn’t. For those who aren’t they will have the opportunity to convert, if they so wish. If not, then they can remain as non-Jews.

**
Assumptions get you into trouble. You earlier claimed to know about who the Jews are. Do you or don’t you?

**

No, what I claimed to know was Jewish law on the matter. I can’t just look at a person and say “you’re Jewish” or “you’re not.” However, if you tell me about the person’s lineage and history, then yes, I can tell you who is Jewish and who isn’t.

**
Are you delusional or just telling fibs?

**

This is the third time you have insulted me in this thread. Insults are not allowed in Great Debates. If you want to insult me and call me names, take it to the Pit.

**
If you know who is a Jew, I ask you again, am I a Jew? Just tell the truth Zev.

**

Which part of “no” did you not understand. If what you told us in the past is true, then you are not a Jew. If you were lying to us all along and have a Jewish mother, or converted to Judaism according to halacha then you are a Jew.

**
You see what I meant by low life is someone who would never make conversion. The same lowlife of Jewish descent is qualified as a Jew even though he is smoking from the same crack stem.

**

And just because someone happens to be Jewish, what makes you think we approve of their smoking crack? The matter is comperable to U.S. citizenship. A natural-born citizen is still a citizen no matter how many crimes he commits. However, if a person has a criminal record, the U.S. can and usually will deny him citizenship if he applies.

Zev Steinhardt

[Triskadecamus]

Willy,

Are you under the impression that your responses in this debate are logical, and reasonable, and Zev is being illogical, and unreasonable?

Just curious.

Tris

[Sweet_Willy]

Willy,

Are you under the impression that your responses in this debate are logical, and reasonable, and Zev is being illogical, and unreasonable?

Just curious.

Tris

Well that would depend on if you percieve a 3,000 year old man in a chariot of fire as logical and reasonable. I think it is a load of BS. What do you think about such a claim?

[Abe]

*Originally posted by JThunder *
BTW, in the OP you said, “So if Jesus comes down tomorrow (first time or second, you choose)…” Are you seriously suggesting that he never arrived the first time? Virtually all historians agree that Jesus Christ did exist – and if by some chance they are wrong, then this talk of his return becomes meaningless. **

JThunder, I am sure I have come across historians that do not agree that the Jesus of the Bible did exist–and what’s more they seem to have the edge (if perhaps not the numbers) in this discussion, since to my knowledge not one item of reliable evidence in favour of the existence of Jesus has ever shown up.

It is perfectly plausible, although offensive to some groups, to suggest that Jesus was a fiction, or at the very least that he is as yet entirely hypotehtical, historically speaking. Some historians do indeed agree that he did exist, but those that do base their case on highly circumstantial support rather than any concrete direct evidence. I also suppose that some historians are inclined to “believe” that Jesus existed owing to their own bias.

Not to say that such is the standard behaviour of the standard historian, but I question professional students of history making certain statements when the evidence is so completely lacking. Under the circumstances a partial consensus among historians is not sufficient grounds to assume that Jesus existed in any way as described in Christian or derivative texts (of course, Jesus was a common name and a person or persons with such a name may very well have existed in some connection with Christian tradition, but again we don’t have the evidence).

[Triskadecamus]

*Originally posted by Sweet Willy *
**Well that would depend on if you percieve a 3,000 year old man in a chariot of fire as logical and reasonable. I think it is a load of BS. What do you think about such a claim? **

Are you saying that your assessment of your reasonableness and rationality are dependent upon my perceptions?

It’s not a tough question, Willy, really.

Do you think, in the exchanges you have had, in this thread, that your posts are examples of reasonable, rational debate? I already know my own opinions, and find it odd that you would ask me what I think of Zev, when I ask what you think of your own argument.

But, I think you may have provided the information I seek already.

Tris

[Sweet_Willy]

No, what I claimed to know was Jewish law on the matter. I can’t just look at a person and say “you’re Jewish” or “you’re not.” However, if you tell me about the person’s lineage and history, then yes, I can tell you who is Jewish and who isn’t.

You are trying to back track on me Zev. Let me quote you again;

quote:

OTOH, I do know about who is a Jew and who isn’t.

---

Now do you know who is a Jew or not? Is this a lie?

This is the third time you have insulted me in this thread. Insults are not allowed in Great Debates. If you want to insult me and call me names, take it to the Pit.

Not an insult Zev. I want to know if you are delusional or just a liar. You have contradicted yourself several times in this thread.

According to Maimonides, the world will continue on. To quote him: ain bein olam hazeh l’olam habah elah shibud malchiyos bilvad. (“There is no difference between this world and the next world except the subjegation of the nations.”)

Then you say this;

Subjugate the nations??? Where did you see that??? All I said was that Israel would be independent of the nations around it. It says nothing about subjugating anyone. Please don’t put words into my mouth.

Those are your own words which you later try to explain away.

And you are deliberately confusing two issues. I don’t know every detail of what is going to happen when the messiah comes. I never claimed that I did. All I did was present what Maimonides said on the subject.

OTOH, I do know about who is a Jew and who isn’t.

Then this;

---

Finally, am I a Jew Zev?

---

Asked and answered many times for you already. No.

You sure about that Zev? I have some troubling news for you.

I’m not God and I am not going to presume to tell you what is on His mind.

What does He think of the reformers? I can’t tell you. I’m not God. However, Jewish law does not look upon them favorably.

Then you do anyway;

If they have twisted Gods will I would think he is a bit miffed at them.

---

The actual founders of the Reform movement? I might venture that you are probably correct.

Yes, not all Jews agree on who is a Jew. But all groups accept converts. There is not a single group who says “we don’t accept any converts.”

quote:

What does he think of the Jews converted by the reformers?

---

Again. I’m not God and I am not going to presume to tell you what is on His mind.

However, as far as Jewish law goes, they are not Jews.

So actually, some groups don’t accept converts? Are you sure you know what is going on here? Someone does what they have been lead to believe is conversion but then you say they aren’t Jews. Do you accept converts or not? Get it together man.

You still have evaded the important question of who wrote the Jewish laws. Who wrote them?

[ice1000]

*Originally posted by Sweet Willy *
**

Well that would depend on if you percieve a 3,000 year old man in a chariot of fire as logical and reasonable. I think it is a load of BS. What do you think about such a claim? **

Well, to me, it certainly is different. But it’s just as reasonable as a guy walking on water, dying, then coming back several thousand years later to finish up his business.