I normally never do this, but cite?
You have to be kidding me. After you read these cites I’d like to see some cites proving he has a low IQ.
C’mon. Even if he got “Gentlemen’s C’s” I find it hard to believe that not only would Yale pass him, but Harvard would hand him a masters degree. There’s a bit more effort involved in post-graduate work that someone with a low IQ would have trouble doing in a normal school, if not a an Ivy League institution. The arguments brought against his education are what I find the most staggering: it’s Ivy League, they do wash people out, and if Bush was an idiot they would have washed him out, Congressman father or no.
They don’t usually let people with low IQ’s fly jets in the National Guard. And please don’t give me any crap about him having the lowest acceptable grade. I’m sure the cut off point is above the moron level.
Washington Post* again. This is an article about Gore’s education, but it talks about Bush’s SAT score.
Not stellar, but far above moron, and dare I say it, at least above average.
Now. How about some cites proving Bush has a low IQ?
*[sub]I couldn’t get the link to work right, so if you wish to view the article type in “verbal 566” and set the dates searched to include March 19, 2000. It’s $2.50 to read the article. Or you could just search the web where there are numerous less reputable sources that’ll cite the same information. I just went for the big guns.[/sub]
You have to be kidding me. After you read these cites I’d like to see some cites proving he has a low IQ.
C’mon. Even if he got “Gentlemen’s C’s” I find it hard to believe that not only would Yale pass him, but Harvard would hand him a masters degree. There’s a bit more effort involved in post-graduate work that someone with a low IQ would have trouble doing in a normal school, if not a an Ivy League institution. The arguments brought against his education are what I find the most staggering: it’s Ivy League, they do wash people out, and if Bush was an idiot they would have washed him out, Congressman father or no.
They don’t usually let people with low IQ’s fly jets in the National Guard. And please don’t give me any crap about him having the lowest acceptable grade. I’m sure the cut off point is above the moron level.
Washington Post* again. This is an article about Gore’s education, but it talks about Bush’s SAT score.
Not stellar, but far above moron, and dare I say it, at least above average.
Now. How about some cites proving Bush has a low IQ?
*[sub]I couldn’t get the link to work right, so if you wish to view the article type in “verbal 566” and set the dates searched to include March 19, 2000. It’s $2.50 to read the article. Or you could just search the web where there are numerous less reputable sources that’ll cite the same information. I just went for the big guns.[/sub]
>>it’s Ivy League, they do wash people out, and if Bush was an idiot they would have washed him out, Congressman father or no.<<
You are obviously not very familiar with the state of university education today. Sure they wash kids out, but not students that make big financial donations or are connected to important people (like say the head of the CIA). Those kids can get into and graduate from Ivy’s with no difficulty. I know kids who never even took their SAT’s, who couldn’t name all 50 states, that have graduated from UPenn and other top schools.
>>They don’t usually let people with low IQ’s fly jets in the National Guard. And please don’t give me any crap about him having the lowest acceptable grade. I’m sure the cut off point is above the moron level.<<
Since when is high IQ correlated to the ability to fly a plane. All you need is a pilot’s license and Bush barely got that.
>>Bush’s 1206 total from 566 verbal and 640 math<<
I can’t prove it’s the case for Bush, but many wealthy students get tutored for the SATs. For $1000 the Princeton Review with guarantee 100 to 150 point increase. It’s a big controversy because it puts lower class students at a disadvantage. The really wealthy can spend upwards of $20,000 in private tutors for a single standardized test. Given Bush’s elitist upbringing, and his grooming for success in business and politics it’s likely he was tutored, and he only managed to break 1200.
>>Now. How about some cites proving Bush has a low IQ? <<
Is Our Children Learning? : The Case Against George W. Bush by Paul Begala
Shrub : The Short but Happy Political Life of George W. Bush by Molly Ivins, Lou Dubose
The Bush Dyslexicon: Observations on a National Disorder by Mark Crispin Miller
cainxinth, I’m afraid you’re simply not making your case. He may be a wholly owned subsidiary of corporate America and the laziest thinker ever to sit in the Oval Office, but your attempts to portray him as stupid are simply not persuasive. For example, it is not true that
To fly a military jet (even a gold-card-exemption-to-combat-service military jet) one has to pass a rigorous course that includes a lot of high-level math. The Air Force would get in a lot more trouble for letting some congresscritter’s kid wipe out a subdivision by being incompetent to calculate fuel and weight ratios than they ever would by simply flunking an idiot, however well-connected.
Things may have changed since then, but back when GWB was an undergrad, the toughest thing about an Ivy League school was getting in. There were precious few folks who flunked out. The diploma on my wall is proof positive of this assertion.
I can’t honestly speak to the situation in grad schools at the time, having not experienced it first-hand. Still, I can’t help but think it was pretty much the same as the undergraduate environment. In fact, I knew some grad students who couldn’t be counted on to keep themselves fed and clothed without a keeper, yet they got their degrees.
Please note that my point here is limited: I’m only saying that pointing to GWB’s college degrees doesn’t really provide any proof that he’s not a slobbering moron.
My bad about the planes.
But even though I can’t prove it, it still seems likely that Bush glided through his National Guard duties with as much help from his father’s cronies as every other challenge in his life. He was missing from the NG for a whole year that is still unaccounted for, who knows what other shenanigans went on. I don’t think he’s lazy either. He has shown he is very willing to work hard to accomplish his goals. He’ll use any handout, loophole, or boy’s club trick at his disposal to get what he’s after.
One of my friends from high school that has severe learning disabilities just got back his LSAT scores today. He got a 166, which is a fabulous score and places him in the 93 percentile. He didn’t get that score because he is a natural test taker or intellectually gifted, but because he worked his ass off for two solid years to prepare and utilized the system to get an un-timed test. I don’t think that makes his score any less representative of his ability than any other test taker, but it isn’t evidence that he’s a particularly bright person. Bush’s accomplishments are only marginally exceptional, and from all accounts he managed them in spite of his intelligence not because of it.
Pointing to GWB’s SAT score actually supports the proposition that it was only money and family connections that got him into Yale. A score of 1206 wouldn’t have gained him admission unless he was also a world-class athlete, a nationally recognized artist, or was in some other way exceptional. That kind of score may be above average, but for admission to an Ivy League school in those days, a 1206 would have been the kiss of death.
I’m not sure any of this is particularly relevant to his qualification to be POTUS anyhow. I know lots of people with above average IQ (and SAT) scores whom I wouldn’t trust to run a Burger King, let alone a country.
But yes, anyone who thinks that degrees are awarded exclusively on the basis of academic ability wasn’t paying attention at school. Where there’s money (or the potential to get money) involved in some way, universities are often quite happy to bend the rules pretty severely.
Forgive me for pointing out the obvious…
If you wanted to bomb Arabs and give yourself a trillion dollars wouldn’t it make sense to have a scapegoat so blatantly obvious as to not even require the pointing of a finger?
I mean seriously~! We can’t prove Bush is an imbicile, but it sure seems like it. We can prove that Bush was elected, but aparently he’s the president. We can’t prove that Bush is an addict or greedy, but even if he is, so are most of us; and he’s an imbicile to boot (but we can’t prove it). The moral of the story is; life is absurd, but the rules are the rules. If Bush wants to bomb Iraq, gas Seattle and strike cozy deals with chums; that’s his peropgative. Not only because he is the president, but because he’s a dumb one; and it’s rude to get angry at dumb people - we need tolerance in America.
It seems that his media persona acts as a tool to dissipate anger into genuine concern for the plight of really dumb people who are followed because of ritual (they have rights too!! the law is the law); and to act as a weapon of psychological terror towards well, really just about anyone - including the countries and resources of interest. It’s kind of a frieghtening aspect to think of Sadaam over there pondering how to engage with such a powerful country when it’s being led by bigoted impulse absent reflection. It also places blame outwardly, by laying out such a stack of seemingly transparent cards. I would guess that Bush is serving his function quite well.
-Justhink
In my opinion, the President needs to know how to speak properly. The President is supposed to be someone that comforts the nation, expresses anger or remorse when necessary, and does it all with at least a bit of style. In the past, President’s have been able to give a good speech without grammar and syntax criticisms the following day. This is not the case with Bush. It’s not even that he is not using a large vocabulary; George W. Bush just doesn’t have a decent understanding of the English language. I cannot fathom how someone with such a poor understanding of the language could become the President of the United States or how he passed through English courses in college. I do not think that the President should be a great speaker, although someone in his position (who recognizes that he is not good at public speaking) should at least use prepared speeches written by professionals on the White House staff.
Jeez, you Democrats just won’t let go of this, will you? You just HAVE to pin a label on the opposition. Republicans are either stupid (Eisenhower, Ford, Reagan, Quayle, Bush II), or evil (Nixon, Bush I).
Let’s look at the facts. George W. Bush:
[ul]
[li]Scored 1206 on the SATs, which at that time put him in the 88th percentile. These scores were not much worse than the ‘brilliant’ Al Gore’s, and significantly better than the ‘brilliant’ Bill Bradley. They indicate an intelligence not at genius level, but significantly above average. Maybe 120 or so.[/li][li]Managed to get a degree from Yale, and an MBA from Harvard, despite the fact that he was known at the time to be a party animal. If you show me a slacker who got C’s like Bush, or an earnest student who got C’s, like Gore, I know which one I’d think was more intelligent.[/li][li]Scored 95% on his officer’s candidate test. [/li][li]Qualified to fly the F-102. I’ve found a couple of anti-bush web pages that try to make the claim that he was put in a ‘safe’ airplane because he couldn’t handle the newest ones. The fact is, the F-102 was a handful to fly, and dangerous as hell. Bush was more likely to be killed during his 3500 hours of flying the F-102 than if he had been drafted into a combat assignment in Vietnam. For the record, most people who try to qualify for flight training the forces wash out. Of those that do qualify, only the best make it into fighter jets. If Bush was a lousy pilot, he would have spent his Guard service on the ground, or flying in the right seat of a light transport or something.[/li][li]Beat a popular incumbant to become governor of Texas.[/li][li]Was re-elected as governor of Texas.[/li][li]Beat the likes of John McCain to become the Republican presidential nominee.[/li][li]Soundly tromped all over Al Gore in their three presidential debates.[/li][li]Beat Al Gore to become president, despite Gore having all the natural advantages.[/li][li]Has become one of the most popular presidents in modern times.[/li][/ul]
Against this evidence, we have the carping of the liberal hit-squad of Paul Begala and Molly Ivins, and a bunch of out-of-context quotes and outright fabrications.
Anyone who removes their partisan blinders and judges Bush objectively should be able to see what he is - a competant man of slightly above average intelligence, who has good communication skills, excellent political instincts, and knows how to surround himself with good people.
“”“Beat the likes of John McCain to become the Republican presidential nominee.”"""
I figured McCain was used to take attention off of the fact that Shrub shouldn’t even be there.
A few days before votiing, with McCain in the lead, oops!! McCain was all of a sudden this angry person who couldn’t control his temper, no evidence of this minus heresay. He’s a nice guy, but unfortunately ‘wounded’ to such a severe degree from his torture service to our country that he’s actually unfit for the office – swoosh! Bush leaps up 40 points in the polls. The guy who barely made a healine is now the republican nominee.
“”"""“Soundly tromped all over Al Gore in their three presidential debates.”"""""""
You mean contradicting himself left and right and talking like a schizophrenic? Yes, I observed that decisive victory first hand myself - press commentators unanimously agreed that Bush did better. That third debate was a frieghtening display IMO, not a word was uttered about the dementia displayed by Bush in that candid setting.
“”""""“Beat Al Gore to become president, despite Gore having all the natural advantages.”"""""""
I simply disagree here.
“”"""“Has become one of the most popular presidents in modern times.”""""""
N-Sync has not only sold more albums, but they are also the most popular band in modern times, quite possibly all-time! Britney Spears is really making a run to catch them though! The suspence is unbearable!
“”“Scored 95% on his officer’s candidate test.”""
How many of us here with the degree of intelligence, wealth and TIME at his disposal (to access these qualities) would have been able to miss any of the answers on that test, without doing do intentionally?
“”"""""""“Qualified to fly the F-102. I’ve found a couple of anti-bush web pages that try to make the claim that he was put in a ‘safe’ airplane because he couldn’t handle the newest ones. The fact is, the F-102 was a handful to fly, and dangerous as hell. Bush was more likely to be killed during his 3500 hours of flying the F-102 than if he had been drafted into a combat assignment in Vietnam. For the record, most people who try to qualify for flight training the forces wash out. Of those that do qualify, only the best make it into fighter jets. If Bush was a lousy pilot, he would have spent his Guard service on the ground, or flying in the right seat of a light transport or something.”"""""""""
This I don’t know - his ‘ADD’ might actually improve his ability to play video games.
I’m not sure you could charachterize me as a liberal. If I wanted to be conservative about the last 5 minutes, I wouldn’t eat anymore food, as I haven’t eaten any food in the last 5 minutes.
I would conserve the stasis of time for a 5 minute loop in regards to my excecution of choice; maintaining the status quo. As a liberal, I would well, liberate myself from the desire for food and still starve to death. If voting were even a fraction of a transparent process, it might actually matter whether these parties possessed their own uncontradictory constitutions; however, it does become a moot point, when people can’t observe the voting process.
-Justhink
I have no idea what your last paragraph said.
Now, just for fun, let’s apply the same analysis to Gore:
[ul]
[li]Scored 1366 on his SATs - better than Bush, but by no means genius level.[/li][li]Average marks in college - no better than Bush’s. Mostly a mix of C’s and B’s. And for the ‘environmental’ Senator he portrayed himself to be, it’s interesting to note that he scored a D in natural sciences.[/li][li]Attended Vanderbuilt divinity school, where he received 5 F’s out of 8 courses he took before dropping out.[/li][li]Managed to get into Vanderbuilt law school despite his stellar performance in divinity school. Racked up a packet of C’s and worse before dropping out completely. During the same period, Bush completed a Masters from Harvard.[/li][li]While much has been made of Bush’s post-schooling business career, it should be noted that Gore never had one. He went straight from school into government with no real-world experience to speak of.[/li][li]Wrote Earth in the Balance, one of the worst, error-ridden popular science books in memory.[/li][li]Despite having 8 years of experience in the White House, managed to look incompetant and disconnected when debating George Bush [/li][/ul]
So do I think Gore is stupid? Nope. He’s pretty bright. Unlike some of you, I don’t put on my partisan blinders when trying to evaluate people. I could give a rat’s ass that Gore dropped out of school. And C’s in college could mean anything from not being bright to being brilliant but not giving a shit about the course you’re taking.
The fact is, the two men are virtual twins. Both were born into power and prestige. Both of them had influential fathers in government. They scored similar marks in school, took similar courses. Bush went into private life, Gore straight into government. Both of them wound up competing for the same job.
Yet some people insist on characterizing one as a drooling idiot, and the other as one of the most brilliant men around. What nonsense.
This proves that Gore is a genius. Anyone who gets A’s in divinity school would be “rationality challenged.” 
Cainxinth, your cites are somewhat lacking. The titles alone make me cringe when it comes to considering their objectivity. There is also the problem that for your first three cites you’re quoting the synopses of books which begs the question of what the actual content of what’s inside. Of course that’s not the big problem with them, none of them say he’s an idiot, just a poor politician which is a separate debate. Your third cite even says “Bush is a man who, while not stupid. . . .” “Not stupid.” Doesn’t help your argument much.
As for your last cite, those guys are living in their own little world. They claim his advisors won’t let him hold press conferences and yet they don’t say where they got this information from. If they’re referring to sitting down in front of a large group of reporters and letting them have at him Bush has given one of those sessions already in this term and Clinton gave none in his second. Seems to be to the SOP for recent Presidents not to have large Q and A’s and not due to advisors not allowing them.
They take his words and twist them to fit their perceptions. For example they claim that he’s too stupid to understand the difference between Methodist and Episcopalian theologies simply because he said he didn’t know the difference. It obviously never occured to their closed minds that he could be happy with his religion and just never went out of his way to compare to other ones. Not stupid, common. Shortsighted maybe, but not stupid.
They hammered his selection for Secretary of the Army, Thomas White, on the basis that he worked for Enron, the poster child for business corruption. The only problem is that White became Secretary of the Army on May 31, 2001 and the brouhaha with Enron didn’t come to light until the fall of 2001. In order for this move to be a demonstration of Bush’s stupidity they need to show that Bush knew about Enron’s problems when he appointed him. This one kills me because they hammer Bush on history and yet themselves seem ignorant of recent history.
For the record I don’t like Bush and wouldn’t mind if he was out of office. I just don’t see any evidence that he is stupid specifically because of so see much evidence to the contrary.
Excuse me, Mr. Pot? There’s a call for you from Mr. Kettle – something about coordinating wardrobes?
Anyhow, I just thought I’d pick up on this comment:
Has become one of the most popular presidents in modern times.
Let’s not forget how much of that is in relation to 9/11 and the continuing level of crisis, prolonged, IMO, by the Bush administration via the “War on Terrorism”, the fighting in Afghanistan and persistent harping on the Iraq threat. Look at Giuliani – he was hardly Mr. Popular before the event, and suddenly he was seen as a paragon of strong leadership just because he managed not to offend anybody in the aftermath of the tragedy. Bush’s popularity is (IMO again) driven far more by circumstances and his administration’s spin thereon than by his ability to formulate and implement coherent policy or by his gravitas as a statesman and leader.
He’s also (IMO as always) humiliated the country in the eyes of the rest of the world through his foreign policies and become an embarrassment to Americans everywhere, although I suppose for those Americans who don’t think outside the boundaries of their own county or state, that’s not such a big deal.
Talk about not getting over it!
Lets not forget one fact: Al Gore got more votes than Dubya. Indisputable. For eight years the extra-chomosome crowd babbled on and on about how Bill Clinton didn’t get a majority of the votes in either 1992 or 1996. But, at least he got MORE VOTES THAN THE GUY WHO CAME IN SECOND!!!
Jesus H. Christ in a Chicken Basket! I’m not saying I would prefer Gore, but good Gawdalmighty at least understand that Son of a Bush came in second in the popular vote and won the electoral college. At worst, Dubya is an illegitimate president who lost the popuar vote in Florida but had it handed to him by a corrupt brother/governor and secretary of state with willing accomplices in the SCOTUS. At best, he was the second choice of a majority of American voters but the winner in the electoral college. Neither one sounds like a hook upon which to hang one’s political hat.
Time will tell how he is perceived. With what he’s done to the economy already and the potential economic harm a war with Iraq would cause, his re-election would be proof positive he’s not a moron. Anyone that can overcome the first two years of this tragedy and win a second term is a genius.
Don’t Blame Me - I Voted For Zappa