Proportionally speaking, are wolves more fatal than dogs?

There are larger wolves. The Alaskan Timber Wolf is huge. Femles average 100 lbs, males average 137 lbs, and specimens have been caught weighing up to 175 lbs. They can be 7 ft long and 36 inches tall at the withers.

“Take down?” Do you mean ‘hunt and kill and eat’? Or just that the wolves, feeling packish and bold, would fuck you up 'cause you’re in their hood?

Don’t need answer fast. Not super-fast anyway.

I believe, in general, any wild animal is more dangerous than any domestic animal of the same species, of equal weight and condition. Domestic dogs may be trained to kill, but wild dogs, wolves and coyotes kill every day to survive (and do so in a hostile environment). They don’t need to be trained to kill, killing was never bred out of them in the first place.

By the same token, I don’t believe any canine can kill any feline of equal weight and condition. A 150lb pussycat could dispatch a wolf with ease. Cats are badass killers.

That seems unlikely to me. Wolves that infrequently interact with humans might become more bold around them, because there’s unlikely to be an immediate penalty. Wolves that interact frequently with humans will be swiftly punished for aggressive behavior.

(Here in Los Angeles, many localities have coyote hazing programs, specifically to make coyotes fear people.)

I think you’re right, but mountains lions avoid confrontations with canines. Probably because canines often have friends nearby.

Heh. So, get 'em drunk and write “hurr durr I’m a stupid coyote” on the top of their heads while they’re sleeping?

True, cat’s are smart and avoid unnecessary trouble when they can avoid it.

On the other hand, it would be a different story against a 300lb jaguar on its own turf in the jungle. I don’t think even a pack of wolves would intimidate that cat. Unlike other cats who kill mainly by strangulation (which takes time), with a bite-force of ~2000psi (highest of all big cats), jaguars kill immediately by crushing the skulls of their prey. The first wolf would be killed before he knew what hit him, then the cat would retreat back into the bush. The rest would be picked off one at a time through a series of ambush strikes.

No, the hazing involves a Roadrunner breeding program and the distribution of catalogs advertising products from Acme Corporation, a shell corporation set up to supply coyotes with a range of dangerous and defective products.

Well, you’ve withdrawn into an unprovable hypothetical here.

But I’m confident this is not what would happen, from observation of dogs and hyenas vs lions. If the jaguar committed to try to make the kill on one wolf, it would find three other wolves embedded in its backside.

Another example of canids that do share an ecosystem with cats is African Wild Dogs and lions. Compared to the hypothetical wolf vs jaguar, African Wild Dogs have a significantly greater weight handicap to lions, but hold their own. Cheetahs are completely dominated by lions and will always just run. A pack of dogs will not, provided they have the numbers. Don’t underestimate teamwork and intelligence. I mean, that’s how we came to dominate lions, isn’t it?

Lions are hampered by needing a couple minutes to strangle their prey, during which time they can be harassed by the dog pack. Jaguars kill quickly and can retreat quickly. As long as there’s a tree or bush nearby, my money is still on a jaguar against a pack of wolves (5 max).

It’s pure fantasy that a jaguar could kill a wolf so quickly that other wolves wouldn’t have time to react.

It could ambush a lone wolf if there were some sensible reason to do so. But in reality the risk reward of this would make no sense. Even a minor injury can be a death sentence for a predator - more so when you don’t have pack mates to share food with you while you heal.

You have animals like warthogs and honey badgers that coexist with lions. The outcome of any committed engagement with a lion is never in doubt, and unlike antelope they cannot outrun a cat. Yet they survive because if they must fight they are vicious assholes, and the lions know that engagement carries a high risk of injury.

Well, here’s a video of a jaguar vs. large caiman. I don’t believe a wolf’s skull is any stronger than that of the caiman. Sure, the jaguar may get a few wolf nips during the few seconds he’s crushing the first wolf’s skull before retreating, but jaguars skin can sustain bite injuries pretty well.

May I have a question?

In my teens, I wrote a short story in which I included this line, describing a night scene:

“Everything was ominously quiet, save for the periodic howling of a wolf, who had just wrestled a cougar in the nearby woods.”

This story, by the way, was set in British Columbia. And I eventually scrapped it as a bit of juvenalia. A couple of years ago, however, I recycled this line in a ghost story I wrote (but haven’t published as yet). However, as this newer story is set in Illinois, I replaced “wolf” with “coyote” and “cougar” with “fox”.

Is either the first or the second pairing of animals “wrestling” at all plausible in real life?

Cougars can and do kill lone wolves, but avoid wolf packs, where they would be defeated. I don’t believe wrestling is the correct term. It’s more stalk and ambush.

Coyotes are larger than foxes. Foxes avoid coyote territory. Coyotes may rarely attack and kill foxes, though they don’t generally take the risk, and they don’t eat them. I don’t believe wrestling is the correct term. It’s more bite and shake to death.

I just stopped in to invite everyone to the first live show of my new stoner rock project, Coyote Haze.


Does the haze happen to be purple?

As the video I posted above demonstrates, jaguars can kill large prey almost instantaneously. This article delves a bit further into their technique.

Cougars kill lone wolves on occasion, though I agree that cougars would usually be defeated by a pack of wolves.

But jaguars are more efficient killers than cougars. They are larger, more muscular, and most importantly, they kill very quickly (a huge advantage when contending with more than one combatant). And, unlike wolves, cats have more than one weapon at their disposal: fangs, right paw, and left paw. 5 retractable razor blades attached to the distal phalanges of each digit attached to powerful arms is a deadly weapon and they can be used concomitantly with its fangs when fighting more than one foe.

Add to this cat’s acrobatic maneuverability and their ability to climb trees with ease, then I believe this tips the scales in favor of jaguars being able to defeat a small pack of wolves when they have someplace to retreat to (a tree). Jaguars are well-oiled killing machines, more so even than other big cats, pound for pound.

Since we are talking about a 5-to-1 deathmatch, it’s only fair that we give the jaguar home-field advantage in the Amazon jungle, where it has no natural enemy (humans excluded). In fact, I believe having no experience with pack predators (unlike lions who have to contend with hyenas and wild dogs), jaguars should have no inherent fear of them. A fighter with no fear is a more dangerous opponent.

By the same token, wolves share territory with cougars, but not jaguars, putting them at a disadvantage in dealing with this more efficient predator.

While I believe a large alpha jaguar could defeat a small pack of wolves, I don’t think he could defeat a small clan of spotted hyenas, who have more experience with large cats. He may take out one or two, though.

The jag will learn quickly enough after being harassed by the wolf pack members that it must retreat after the first kill, re-assess the situation, and up its game for round 2. Unless we’re talking about tree-climbing wolves (note: they can’t climb very high), the cat will have time to figure this out and pounce again when he sees the opportunity, assuming the wolves don’t retreat first. It would not surprise me if the jaguar took out 2 wolves on its first strike: one with its skull-crushing fangs, and the other defending himself with its claws as he retreats safely up the tree.

[Genesis] And Then There Were Three [/Genesis].

I understand I’m in the minority in believing a jaguar could defeat a small pack of wolves, but I stand by my belief. I’ve lived with cats my entire life, and currently have 6 (6 domestic cats, not 6 jaguars :smile:). They are truly marvels of evolution. Pound for pound I don’t believe there is a more efficient mammalian predator. Observing 6 cats interacting has given me an even greater insight into how they think, and how they exploit any and all situations to their advantage. Not to belittle the intelligence of canines (I’ve had them too) and the cooperative force of pack animals, but cats are smarter and more devious.

Personal note: One of my cats, Tibby (my namesake), was carted off by a large owl when he was a kitten. Luckily, someone whacked the owl with a broom when it was airborne and the owl released Tibby’s head from its talons, dropping him to the ground. That’s when I adopted the kitten and raised him as an indoor-only cat. He never lost the talon scars on this scalp.

As he grew to young adulthood, Tibby never ventured outdoors. To my knowledge, he never killed anything larger than a house spider. One day I found a live large bird trapped in my lanai. I opened the sliding glass door to rescue the bird, but Tibby slipped through my legs. The bird went airborne. Tibby leaped high in the air, swatted the bird down with his paws, and had the bird’s head down his throat when he scampered back into the house. This took less than 5 seconds. I followed. When I pried the bird from his throat, it was dead with a broken neck. Natural instinct? Sure enough. But, I believe Tibby also had a personal vendetta against birds after his painful encounter with the owl.

Don’t bring a bird to a cat fight, or a wolf to a jaguar fight.

The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of Tibby, a SDMB cat in good standing, and do not necessarily represent the policy or opinions of gray wolves, red wolves, timber wolves, or their associates.

I am almost 100% on your side (and Dr. Deth… most wolves are small and inconsequential for all purposes, they are mean and terrified (of us) dogs. As it should be).

The one caveat I would add is the wolves wouldn’t leave the tree ever. Not after their packmate was horribly mauled. They’ll wait that cat out till they’re starving. I don’t think Jaguar’s can go any longer than a wolf pack without food so I’d imagine they’re would be a proper fight if the Jag didnt flee. They’re scared of almost everything (Jaguars) and extremely overly cautious usually.

(take all this with the fervour of a biology drop out though , but I did want to be a zoo engineer was going to design enclosures animals wouldn’t see you seeing them or know they were even “captive” etc lost dream heh).

I’ve owned about 6 dogs and 3 cats in my life. They’re all good killers. Cept the lab… sorry Mandy. Pulled just as many bloody rabbits out of my dogs mouth as received presents on my pillow or porch back in the day (indoor only now).

But not that anyone asked but yes , when wolves are shown as big scary aggressive animals in movies … drives me batty. They’re basically mostly (not all , not the Timber etc) fairly small pack animals. I’d be much more frightened by Moose or Bears or even some of the deer around here

(I was almost trampled near a stoner spot near my house by about 20 DAMN deer! they were soooo huge and the buck just stopped and did that puffing thing right near me about 10 feet away. I was totally frozen in fear , they seemed soooo big. He just eyeballed me as his herd ran through than left).

Gave me the willies. Also the run they passed me on was about 2 feet away so I might have soiled myself a little cuz it was a “whats that rustle BOOM THUD THUD THUD BOOM THUD THUD” I honestly didn’t think they came that big even up here in Canada… it was near Toronto for crying out loud…

Telling that story even in typing form makes my heart thud a little harder remembering heh.

Is it fair to compare dogs and wolves though? Dogs live amongst humans, we meet them every day. Most people never see a wolf. Ofcourse dog accidens will happen, while wolf accidents not so much

Good points, actually excellent points.

In North America there are two maybe unprovoked wolf attacks in recorded history. And those are disputed.

In Norway, a traditional wolf country, only one confirmed kill is by wolves. In year 1800 a 6 year old was killed by wolves.

The link is a cite altough in norwegian.

Every year several people die of wasp stings, ofcourse they being allergic, but all the same.

There aren’t many deaths of humans by wolves because they don’t encounter each other very often. And the wolf will generally avoid humans (or big dogs, cats, or other large predators) because they are very intelligent, and don’t like taking any risk when they don’t have to (there are easier ways to get food, without getting your fur mussed).

But, if the wolf was forced to fight (or was very hungry), the wolf poses a greater danger to man than any dog. They are bigger, stronger, more aggressive, have a greater bite force, and are more experienced in killing than dogs (it’s their job, not a hobby). They generally hunt in packs, but a lone wolf is dangerous enough on his own.

If a lone wolf (e.g. an alpha grey/gray wolf) was forced to fight any powerful domestic dog of similar size (be it Rottweiler, Mastiff, Dogo Argentino, Pitbull, Kangal, etc.), the wolf would almost always defeat the dog (not a jaguar, though :slightly_smiling_face:).