I disagree. Runners bodies’ have been bouncing off the bag for microseconds since the 1900s. It’s just that nobody could see those bounces until we start measuring it with a micrometer. Runners today, and runners of yesteryear, don’t have the skill to prevent those micro-bounces. And never did.
This seems a total misunderstanding of the OP’s proposed rule change. Somebody who overslides past the bag can still be tagged out. It’s only the player who keeps his body parts over the bag and in sufficient contact with it that the umpire doesn’t spot them coming off in real time that is protected from review micro-management.
ISTM the biggest goal should be to disincentivize asking for a replay on every steal on the off-chance the runner’s body bounced slightly as he was sliding across the bag.
Or really, any non-forceout base-gaining situation where the key feature is “To be safe you need to get to and stay on a new base without being tagged while off the base.”
There’s correct and technically correct. We can now add gnat’s assing far beyond the point it’s adding value. Said another way, greater precision isn’t always useful. Greater accuracy more often is.
I’m reminded of the adage: measure it with a micrometer, mark it with crayon, cut it with an axe. And for years over a century we’ve cut with an axe, and QC’ed the result by umpire eye.
If we continue to cut it with the axe of human baserunner capabilities, but now QC our axe cut with a laser measurement tool plus/minus micrometer tolerances, we’ve not really done something useful or smart.
It makes sense if the “correct call” is annoying, disrupts the flow of the game, and is different than what every competent umpire would have called for the last 120 years.
This sort of thing is still rare enough that monkeying with the rules is a bad idea.
To use the example presented here: Jas09’s proposed wording is “unless all of their body extends beyond the far edges of the base” doesn’t fix this problem at all. It just changes what you are looking at. Now, instead of the runner being out because he left the base by half an inch, he is safe or out because the last part of his body passed the base by half an inch. Instead of looking at here his hand is relative to the base, you’re looking at where another part of the body is relative to the base - I mean, sorry, but it’s indisputably the case that you’ve just shifted where the umpire’s eyes are looking. Worse, you’re now making the ump look at two different things (the tag play, plus position of the entire mbody relative to the line described by the far side of the base.)
I’m not saying I’m a fan of every replay but this proposal doesn’t actually change the fraction-of-an-inch nature of the rule, it just means the faction of an inch is somewhere else, plus we have to look at TWO fractions of an inch on the same play.
This rule change doesn’t solve any problem and arguably makes the problem worse.
I’m happy with the “above the base=safe” modification to avoid defining what “past the bag” means. I see has actually been proposed all the way back in 2017 by someone at Fangraphs.
I do agree it’s potentially just another microscopic replay call, but I do believe the spirit of the rule is that if you slide past the base that is fundamentally different than slightly disengaging from he base while finishing your slide. The first has always been, and should remain, an out - even if we need replay to see it. The latter has never been an out unless it was egregious. And even then I don’t ever remember seeing it called prior to replay review.
Aside; If anybody can find a replay of an ump calling a runner out for bouncing off the base prior to replay I’d love to see it.
Is it though? I watch a lot of baseball and feel like I see a replay review for this sort of thing once every week or two. We are down to less than one SB attempt a game this season.
Perhaps the SB is just a casualty of the new analytics and there is nothing to be done to bring it back. It was always a bad idea for low-success runners to try, and teams just won’t let them do it anymore.
The League has done a pretty good job of “monkeying” with the rules, especially the changes to improve the pace of the game. Off the top of my head, the pitch clock, batters can only step out once per bat, pitchers have a limited number of disengagements (including throws to first to keep the runner close).
They have also reduced the dangerous physical plays - sliding into the second-baseman to kill him before he completes the double-play, and there are rules around collisions at home as well. A relief pitcher brought into the game has to pitch to at least 3 batters is another one.
Maybe some examples would help then. I don’t remember seeing many of these “microbounces” that are being discussed, so it’s tough for me to judge fairly.
Stolen bases are actually UP since the 3 pickoff rule change from a few years ago, and the rate/game hasn’t been above 1 per game since 1997 (the recent peak is .94 a couple of years ago; currently .90, with the low-water mark being .61 in 2021).
Oh, and the new rule of starting a runner on second base in extra innings. That seemed gimmicky at first, but it actually adds excitement and certainly ends the OT games much quicker.
Hmm, the number I saw for this year was 0.7, but now I think that’s probably successful steams per game? I’ll dig in a bit more. You also have to normalize for SB opportunities.
Here’s a great one - does anybody really want this to be an out?
Not a SB but a triple - runner bounces off the bag a bit as he stands up:
Another one - runner beat the throw by a mile (but the tag was, I’ll admit, sloppy)
And one more - same story as the last - beat the throw easily but slid over the base and was tagged during the time between when his hand hit and his leg re-engaged:
These are all within the last few weeks. I didn’t go back further but I have little doubt that you will find many more.
Thanks for those. I can understand the side that thinks those runners should be safe, but I disagree. Every runner came off the bag, and controlling your body enough to maintain contact with the bag is a needed skill.
If this were true, the steal success rate would be zero. But clearly plenty of runners do have the skill to maintain contact and are not called out.
Well sure. But you have to run slower to do that. Which makes you more likely to be out. Which reduces SB success rate… which reduces SB attempts… which, IMO, makes baseball more boring. Not to mention the inherent boringness of replay reviews.
To push back a little bit against the idea that players were just better sliders back in the day, here is a video of Rickey Henderson’s final stolen base (I think we can all agree he was a good base runner)
Disregarding the fact that he was probably tagged prior to reaching the base I’m almost certain that at the 33-second mark if the fielder had kept the tag on him he would be called out on replay today since his hand was past the bag but his leg hadn’t reached it yet. You can see it again at 0:38.
I am reasonably confident that I can dig up tons of slides from the 90s that would be outs today (assuming the fielder held the tag). Baseball just wasn’t officiated that way back then, and I think the game was better for it.
ETA: Just found a replay of Rickey’s 118th steal in 1982 and while the video is bad I’d say it’s 50/50 whether his leading hand bounced off the bag on that one as well. There would definitely have been a replay challenge of the call if it happened today. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O6CQ-l75XY
The design and mechanics of the bag itself are NOT ideally conducive for the player’s body parts to “stick” to it once they make initial contact-in a lot of these vids the player’s leg is liable to bounce up after hitting the edge of the bag, lose all molecular contact for a picosecond oops you’re out. I believe bags were quite a bit softer (with more “give”) decades ago. [This may be a good argument for a headfirst slide a la Rickey upthread, hands can stick better than a foot can]
30 years ago the umpires wouldn’t have gotten out of the stadium alive calling those plays outs. I don’t see why anyone needed slo motion high res cameras to fix what wasn’t a problem.
Edited to add, these plays becoming outs is the direct result of a rule change, so let’s not fall back on baseball purity as a reason to leave it this way.
It’s not unlike what has happened in the NFL where they have had to revise the catch rule multiple times as a result of replay. What fans always assumed was a catch was proven to be too simple in a world where slo-mo replays can show exactly what happened.
I think this one specific instance is one where the definition of a safe slide at a base doesn’t truly align with what fans have, historically, considered a safe slide. The specific instance of the hand or foot beating the tag and then the impact with the base or the movement of the runner over the base causes a brief, slight disengagement with the base, should not be enough to turn an obvious safe call into an out.
Going back to the proposal earlier about not making it reviewable, I’d be OK with that too if I thought the “but this is an out by the rules” fans would accept it. Basically make it so that the only reviewable part of a safe/out call at a base is whether the initial runner’s contact with the base beat the throw. But I don’t think fans would accept that…
That’s interesting, but defensible. Personally, I think the game is better if those are not outs. Stolen bases are fun. Replay reviews are not. Losing a SB because of a replay review is not fun. Different strokes for different folks.
You could have a time rule for disengagement from the base. Not long enough so the player can scramble back on an over-slide, but short enough so that a tiny bump doesn’t count. AI could probably make the determination instantly in the event of a review challenge. Not that I’m really in favor of the idea. It’s always been a part of baseball that if your tagged without being in contact with the base, yer out. Tough noogies.
I like the pace of game changes. I hate the ghost runner with a burning passion, though. I also think the three batter rule shouldn’t apply in the postseason.