Prosecuting the Taliban

In this excerpt from today’s Washington Post, Rumsfeld says that the Northern Alliance have been told to turn over any captured Taliban leaders for interrogation and, possibly, trial by the United States.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said yesterday that the United States has told opposition commanders in Afghanistan that it wants any senior Taliban or al Qaeda members captured by rebel forces turned over for interrogation by U.S. personnel and – if ordered by President Bush – trial by the U.S. military.

On what legal theory will we be trying senior members of the Taliban? For crimes against Afgans? For conspiracy with Al-Qaeda? Would Taliban leaders have a possible sovereign immunity defense under U.S. law even though the U.S. never recognized the Taliban as a government? Is this the Pinochet doctrine run wild? In the event we are prosecuting them for conspiracy with Al Qaeda to commit terrrorist act on U.S. soil, can a future Nicaraguan government prosecute Oliver North for conspiring with the Contras?

U.S. law only applies to them if they’re on U.S. soil. If we try them in Afganistan it doesn’t.

Only if he goes to Nicaragua.

Legal systems are only applicable within a nation’s borders.

Alessan, what you say is a simplification so severe that it is wrong except in the sense of explaining the situation to an 8 year old.

I am not sinking my teeth into the OP yet as I have been doing plenty of homework for other threads but I’ll probably be back soon.

Assuming for the purpose of argument that that is correct, on what legal theory, then, would the Taliban be tried? To the extent there is such a thing, does the U.S. have any legal basis for enforcing Afgani criminal law?

Well, it could have an entirely benign interpretation; the operative word being “perhaps”.

If Taliban leaders are interrogated as to thier complicity with the 9/11 attacks, or any relevent information they might possess, that would be legitimate.

However, any trial still falls under that “perhaps”. The only legitimate basis for such a trial would be direct, provable complicity with the WTC bombings, that is, involvement with an international crime. Clearly, trying Taliban leaders for thier conduct of Afghanistan’s affairs is beyond the pale.

You’re not thinking outside the box. You see, as far as the U.S. is concerned, *there is no law in Afganistan[/]. The Taliban is not recognized (and no longer really exists), no replacement goverment has risen, and the country has not been annexed by anyone else. The only law the U.S. military recognizes is its own internal codem which is not, per se, a legal system at all - rather, it is a tool for enforcing discipline.

Afganistan lies outside the pale. If the U.S. military chooses to kill the Taliban leaders out of hand, they have the right; if they choose to hold military trials, they can do that too. Only if they extradite them to a recognized nation does any law apply to them.

Coding? Mods? Anyone?

quote:Originally posted by Alessan

U.S. law only applies to them if they’re on U.S. soil.
If we try them in Afganistan it doesn’t.

Um, no.

International law (and believe me, it is extremely tricky to define international law, but for the sake of this explanation, let’s call it those rules universally recognized by all nations) agrees that any nation has a legal interest in, and the right to assert jurisdiction over, persons who have committed crimes against that nation’s citizens. Usually this is accomplished by asking for extradition of the suspects. When a “host” government is uncooperative (as witness certain South American countries in which former Nazis took refuge), the offended country may resort to extra-legal means to gain physical custody of the defendant. However, to assert that U.S. laws against murder (I worked across the street from the Trade Center) don’t apply because the people who conspired to commit it either never entered or entered and subsequently left the United States is simply wrong.

Second, under international law, the Taliban and al Quada have committed crimes defined under the statutes of the International Criminal Court as international crimes.

While I was in law school, I had the pleasure of hearing an address by one of the prosecutors of the International Court, who described at length the theory and operation of a prosecution against someone whose defense amounts to “I was following the orders of my government and you can’t put my government on trial and anyway, this is just YOUR ethnic group persecuting MY ethnic group.” The most striking thing she got across was the idea that an international criminal statute is intended to do internationally what national laws do in nations: they require each human being to assume responsibility for his or her actions and bear the consequences for those actions individually.

It is wrong, she said, to use another person’s race, religion, or ethnicity as a reason to kill them, and it is equally wrong for a person to assert that his or her religion or race or ethnicity is a defense, a reason, for killing someone else. That’s the Palestinian argument: we don’t have to consider each Israeli blown up as a human being; they are the enemy, we can kill the enemy. That’s the Taliban argument: we don’t have to consider the individual lives of the persons we murdered at the Trade Center; they were Americans, and we can kill any American because to be American is to be “the enemy.”

The most amazing thing about our country is that, by and large, we have NOT subscribed to this recipe for endless sorrow. We have NOT said, they are the Muslims, they are the Arabs, and we can just kill them without an INDIVIUDAL INQUIRY into the truth (or not) of what the INDIVIDUALS who committed this horrible crime did. See U.S. District Court Judge Sara Scheindlin’s decision granting bail to an Arab-American student accused of knowing two of the hijackers; it’s on FindLaw.

The problem we face now is this: Say that we capture, in round numbers, 1000 persons who are involved enough in these crimes to warrant a trial. The full resources required for a complete American trial would overload our system (each such trial would require a jury, extreme security protections, and hours of testimony). So we must look to a more efficient system. But a military trial is NOT simply a sham for an execution order. The defendants would have a right to counsel, a right to cross examine witnesses, confront the evidence against them, and receive a verdict and sentence–possibly an acquittal–from someone bound by a legal code far more merciful and fair than the one they’ve attempted to impose on Afghanistan and the world. If the fanatics choose to scream “I did it and I’m proud,” that’s their decision—and their testimony. And they can accept the consequences of that choice.

I do hope that we get Osama Bin Laden alive and give him a full public trial from an undisclosed location. Let him have a lawyer; let the evidence be presented as it was at Nuremburg. Then let justice–American justice–be done.

No. At least not following the precedent of US v. Noriega, where Noriega’s claim to sovereign immunity was rejected for precisely that reason.

>> If the U.S. military chooses to kill the Taliban leaders out of hand, they have the right

My goodness, rebutting this is becoming a full time job for me; I have said it in many other threads and I will repeat it here: Killing a person who is in custody and is not a threat is a crime. Only a court of law can sentence to death so please stop repeating this nonsense. Nobody can be taken into custody and executed without due process of law and anyone who would defend doing such thing is not much more civilized than the terrorists.

The “in-custody” factor seems especially important here. What if some portion of American troops kept to a silent, unwritten code of “taking no prisoners”? Could Al-Qaeda and Taliban heavies be killed surreptitiously and could these killings later pass as “in the heat of combat” kills? Is all this feasible?

What is the likelihood of there being enemy witnesses who might later testify against American soldiiers that the Americans refused to accept a surrender?

I understand that you are de jure 100% correct, sailor – but I’m not sure you are de facto correct.

IOW, Alessan’s take may make sense from a practical sense, though such killings are prohibited by various international treaties.

Alessan
You may be correct when you say, “If the U.S. military chooses to kill the Taliban leaders out of hand, they have the right.” But that is really saying that we have no legal theory and that we are going to try and probably execute the Taliban because we can.

Aunt Pam
I don’t want to get into the merits of whether a military tribunal provides sufficient due process. (I believe that’s being discussed in another thread.) You suggest that International Law might be a basis to try them. However I’m not entirely convinced. First, Afganistan certainly hasn’t signed on to any treaties that would subject the Taliban to trial. Second, no one actually recognized them as a government so that probably rules out at least some causes of action. This means you’d be left with “crimes against humanity.” I think this would be a tough argument to make. Even assuming, arguendo, that the entire Taliban movement is a criminal conspiracy directly responsible for 9/11, it still isn’t guilty of genocide. What causes of action under International law do you think would apply?

I agree that one doesn’t need to be physically present in the U.S. to be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder in the U.S., however, isn’t this a dangerous argument? Doesn’t it come very close to validating the Sandinista’s old claim that the U.S. was guilty of murder for supporting the Contras?

waterj2
I thought that Noriega’s sovereign immunity defense failed because drug-running was not a legitimate govermental activity and so fell outside the boundaries of the defense. Surely we did recognized the government of Panama at the time, didn’t we?

elucidator
“The only legitimate basis for such a trial would be direct, provable complicity with the WTC bombings . . .” I agree that this would be a potential basis for trying members of the Taliban. However, I can’t believe that the administration seriously believes they are going to be able to turn up such evidence. The Taliban wasn’t really even a goverment, it was a movement. There’s not going to be a paper trail and there’s going to be very little, if any, direct testimony demonstrating such a link. At most, you’re going to be able to show a general support for Al-Qaeda. Do you think that’s enough to try, convict and probably execute Taliban leaders?

BTW, Though it’s off topic, I agree that there will almost certainly be many ugly episodes that amount to summary execution, most done by our “allies” while we look the other way. We certainly won’t do that to those Taliban we take custody of for interrogation. Our allies wouldn’t stand for it, the American people wouldn’t stand for it and, I am naive enough to believe, the U.S. military wouldn’t stand for it.

You’re correct, on U.S. soil. Saying that U.S. law applies to Afghanistan is saying that Afghanistan is U.S. territory.

Now, it may be against military law to do so - it probably is - but a military code is not a true legal system, but rather a disciplinary tool. A true legal system protects the rights of the individual, while a military code protects the goals of the group. Any good army, after all, is by nature a fascist organization - it can’t really function otherwise.

Now, you (and AuntPam) may claim that summery execution is unethical, and I’d probably agree with you. But you must be aware of the fact that we’re dealing with a question of ethics, not law.

Look - you’re thinking like lawyers, and a lawyer in a war zone is like a podiatrist trying to fix an amputated foot. It’s just not their element.

Lawyers are part of civilization. War is civilization’s opposite.

That’s not true, Alessan. Law applies in war. There are numerous legal conventions dealing with the law of war, the most famous of which (to lay people) is the Geneva Convention. Its not carte blanche on a battlefield.

Any Taleban captured by US troops might be brought to the US (a la Noriega). The trial of Taleban terrorists will be under US law. I’m sure their defence attorneys would raise questions as to the legality of that, but without thinking about it too hard, I can’t see these being successful.

This is where the military tribunals come into it - no backlog, no foreign jurists (as with Nuremburg), and expedition.

From: http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/july97/92-4687.man.html


US law would apply to the conduct of US citizens and soldiers in Afghanistan.

waterj2
Thanks very much for that. That does seem dispositive of that question. I particulary like the suggestion that granting sovereign immunity is a essentially political question to be decided by the executive branch.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that, absent direct, personal involvement in the 9/11 attacks, we have no legal cause of action against any senior Taliban leader. These people are, therefore, prisoners of war and we are required to treat them well and turn them loose once hostilities have ended.

Simply wanting revenge or disliking their style of government is not a legal theory. Attempting to try these people for no better reason than because we can would be a grave diservice to America and what it stands for.

Please feel free to shoot me down and advance a good reason for the U.S. to try these people. I genuinely hope someone can. Otherwise, being dedicated to truth, justice and the American Way (two out of three, for you, Dave) we’ll all have to start loudly defending the Taliban. Bleagh!

Truth Seeker - I have no problem at all with the American Way, so long as it embraces truth and justice.

I think you might have a point. There is a longshot argument that the Taleban have aided and abetted the acts of terrorism perpetrated by al-Qaeda, possibly through various forms of support.

The ICJ might also be interested in trying the Taleban leadership for various breaches of international law, too, but that’s a prima facie hard call too.

I’ll give this some thought.