Psychic Detectives, Justice and the Law

Great Debates
21

I think we have covered the subject well. I would like to relate a story of what happened to a group of psychics when they were asked to help on a case by the Police Department. It was a group I met with, the Police brought us items from the case and asked if we could come up with anything. The group went over the items and wrote down the impressions they got, some of the impressions matched. When one of the group took the data to the police she asked that the group be informed if the information was helpful of not. She also asked that the Police not reveal where or how they got the information. About two weeks later the local newspaper announced the case had been solved with the help of psychics. The group was asked, but never again worked with the Police.

Psychics are more at home helping others rather than catching crooks. With few exceptions the really good psychics shun publicity, they prefer to work in the background helping others.

I found out that the new show *Ghost Whispers * is a brain child of James Van Praagh, that is what makes it so accurate.

If you would like to find a reliable psychic try going to their meetings. Ask around, check with the local library for information.

22

Peter Morris, you let lekatt make multiple spurious claims, but call my asking for a valid cite on any of them a “hijacking”. Would you mind clarifying what you want on this topic, because if you are going to allow unvarified unscientific claims to stand as fact, others should be able to take an opposing stand.

IMHO, of course.

23

Not true. As moderator you should know better than that.

What I want is for this thread NOT to descend into a debate about whether psi does or does not exist. If you want that debate again, take it to a new thread.

That applies to everyone, lekatt just as much as yourself. I say to BOTH of you, take it to a different thread, where you can argue to your hearts’ content.

For the sake of THIS thread, just assume they exist, and discuss the legal implications that follow from that. Only the legal implications. Not whether they exist or not.

24

In general, a witness at trial may only testify as to what he or she has personally seen or heard.

Obviously, sometimes it is necessary for one or both sides at trial to present evidence that goes beyond that sort of direct testimony. If the prosecution wishes, for example, to explain to a jury what conclusions may be drawn from the fact that blood splattered in a certain pattern, they must offer up a witness who will not only testify about the blood splatter he saw, but also offer an opinion about what conclusions can reasonably be drawn from that splatter pattern.

Such a witness is called an “expert witness.” When a witness is qualified as an expert, he may present his own opinions on the meaning of facts within his area of expertise.

A psychic’s testimony at trial could theoretically be accepted under one of two theories. First, the psychic ability could be considered as analogous to sight or hearing, and the psychic would testify only as to what he or she saw/heard/experienced. This would assume (of course) that there was general, wide consensus as to the existence of psychic powers, AND that the way the powers worked was by conveying an accurate reproduction of a real event, like a film or tape recording.

But most fictional accounts don’t depict psychic powers that way. There’s often a measure of interpretation that must be applied to the “vision” or “experience”. For example, in one episode of “Medium,” Allison dreamt that she was perused through an airport by a wolf; she escapes by jumping from an open jetway. This turned out to be precognition: she WAS chased through the airport – but by a murderer; a rogue cop - Detective Wolfe.

If this model is the correct one, then psychics would have to testify as expert witnesses. That is, they would have to explain not only what they saw/heard/experienced, but how it should be interpreted. Obviously, the other side would be free to offer its own expert testimony in rebuttal.

Equally obviously, there would have to be some sort of universally-understood qualification process for psychic expert witnesses. And, as I suggested above, there would have to be a general finding that “psychic powers” are an accepted field from which to draw expert conclusions.

Today, a fingerprint expert can testify on the issue of fingerprint matching without having to defend the entire science of fingerprinting. A DNA expert may offer conclusions about DNA evidence without having to defend DNA evidence. The court may take judicial notice of the general acceptibility of DNA science. But at one time, DNA evidence was new, and there was not such firm ground for courts to rely upon.

DNA testing was in those days subject to a “Frye hearing” or a “Daubert hearing.” This is based on the two cases that have set standards in use throughout the country on the admissibility of new scientific evidence. The Daubert standard, to use the test that’s applicable to federal courts and many states, calls for the judge to assess whther the new field, technique, or method has been:

[ul]
[li]sufficiently tested[/li][li]subjected to peer review and publication[/li][li]determined to be accurate[/li][li]generally accepted[/li][/ul]

The admission of psychic expert testimony would have to pass those same hurdles. If psychic powers have passed those tests, then a judge could permit a psychic expert witness to testify. The psychic would still have to establish his own particular qualifications. (That is, just because DNA scientific testimony is accepted does not mean that I, personally, may serve as an expert witness on DNA). That latter qualification is done through a voir dire-type examination of the witness; he is typically asked such questions as:

[ul]
[li]His resume - what academic or employment qualifications he has [/li][li]What certification, accreditations, awards, or official acknowledgements has he received in his field[/li][li]His publications - books, papers, or articles he has authored[/li][li]Books, papers, articles or authors he has read in his field [/li][li]Classes, conferences or meetings he has attended related to his field[/li][/ul]

Based on the answers to those types of questions, the judge will decide if the particular witness is qualified and may answer as an expert.

25

Czarcasm, by now you should know that is lekatt’s MO. Quite frankly, you are being kind by simply calling them spurious claims. Best thing any GD poster could do is simply scroll past the posts without reading them, and certainly never comment on them.

26

Thanks Bricker for such an illuminating post.

I understand there has been a psychic certification program in place for a long time in Russia, and it determines level of skill. This certification is necessary to work in the Hospitals in Russia. Psychics work beside doctors there.

In England also there is a certification program, it is less formal than Russia and usually determines the popularity of the Psychic.

Some time ago I read about a certification program here in the US, but don’t know if it still in place or not.

It will be a while before Psychics are seen in court in my opinion, but I believe it will be inevitable.

27

I understand the certification lekatt speaks about in Russia is not… exactly, how he describes it. In fact, I seem to recall that upon someone asking a russian doctor at a hospital about it, in a position to know about such things… the doctor had never heard of such a thing.

I do, in fact, have a reasoned answer… it’s from a role-playing game, but at least they thought things out. The Three Telepath System. The book is buried somewhere, but it’s either in Gurps Supers or Gurps IST.

Either way, it seemed to be drawn from the british courts in design. I just have to find it.

28

What would happen to the first few psychics that came forward with information only the killer could know? Would they become a suspect? Contrawise, could a killer claim psychic ability and prove it by providing accurate “insights” then lead the cops/judge away from the truth?

29

In Soviet Russia they test the psychics.
In American court psychics test you.

30

Yes, I think that has happened already, where a psychic becomes a suspect because of the information gathered. I rather doubt the second part. It is extremely difficult for a non-psychic to pass as a psychic. Not so much from the information given but by the personality and manner. Psychics have a certain calmness and confidence about them that is hard to fake.

31

I would hope we will never see that happen.

32

Eye witness testimony may not be a good model. If there were verified psychic powers, and multiple psychics, wouldn’t several be able to tune into the same event and provide verification of it. Perhaps a court would only accept testimony about events multiply viewed. After all lab tests can at least theoretically be repeated; perhaps the same standard could be applied in this case.

33

Many mediocre or failed amateur sportsmen do this, once they achieve great success one day, they refuse to try again; frustrating the more capable persons, the medriocre sprotsmen protects their “victory”. However, that prevents them from facing reality; but the amateur sportsman does not care, neither does the psychics. And, almost needless to say: do you have a cite for the city where this occurred?

:rolleyes:

The good that will do to catch criminals is one of the best things one can do to help others, as I mentioned before, people who have the power should take it to the skeptics and serious scientists. If the power is real, then real applications will come from the research that will benefit mankind; as it is, I only see narcissist psychics.

Ahem, once again we are assuming psychic powers are real; in that universe they would have gone through the tests **Bricker ** mentioned. No such luck in this universe.

Having said that, the P. K. Dick’s “Minority Report” scenario is the one most likely outcome of finding reliable psychics, but let us hope that the dissenting voice that represents the truth, prevent us from getting into that system.

34

In America, you laugh at psychics. In Soviet Russia, pyschics laugh at you!

35

Re Babylon 5

IMHO much of the laws and structure regarding telepathy (telekinesis was known but very rare. Precognition remained unproven) are realistic. OTTOMH

All psychics must register with the government for testing. They are given three options- life in jail, supressants and tracking, or joining Psicorp. The supressants have horrible side effects (something like a lobotomy in pill form).

Psicorp is controlled by all kinds of rules and regulations and overseen by other government agencies. The many laws are a compromise between wanting to prevent and solve crimes, and fears about privacy and Psicorp seizing control of the government.

Re Ghosts

I recommend Isaac Asimov’s Legal Rites. I’d especially like to hear Bricker’s opinion. The premise is that a man is claiming ownership of land through inheritance. A ghost is claiming a legal right to remain on the property due to his long residence and decades of being a friend and tenant of the previous owner.

36

I’m not all that sharp on property law. Nor have I read the story. But if the ghost were simply a person, I don’t see how his decades of being a friend and tenant of the previous owner would carry any particular weight. But if he had a lease with the previous owner, he’d be entitled to remain until the lease ran. A lease can’t run forever, of course, so maybe that’s the hook: the ghost entered into a lease for some hundreds of years, something that a mortal man couldn’t do.

Maybe the long residence of the ghost constitures adverse possession, and he’s claiming title to the land for that reason.

I dunno… someone who remembers their property law would be helpful here.

37

I remembered incorrectly. The ghost isn’t claiming ownership. He’s claiming adverse possession granting him the right to “free and full occupation of it for the duration of his existence.”. Therefore, the new owner’s use of charmed iron, alchemical herbs, and certain rituals to expel the ghost and prevent his return constitute an unlawful eviction.

At least, that’s the position of the plaintiff. Counsel for the defendant has an interesting case as well.

38

Maybe and maybe not. Some psychics are better in certain areas than others. There would be no guarantee more than one could see the information. I do remember a controlled study on psychics where 5 psychics gave readings for 5 people. None of them knew of the others, and the psychics didn’t know of the other psychics. One of the people had a small boy (deceased) that followed her around. All five psychics saw and described the small boy. Their hits on other things were mixed. I thought that was very interesting.

39

The Three Telepath system, as described in Gurps Supers:
There will be three telepaths (or psychics) involved, at any trial. A prosecutor’s psychic, a defense psychic, and a neutral one working for the judge.

All questions will be deposed in advance of the trial. The responses will be written and sealed for review by the judge.

Only information which does not differ from the other two psychics in any meaningful respect will be admitted as evidence.

40

Very interesting test, but I think it will be awhile before it reaches that point here in the U.S. Psychics have both major belief systems against them. The Christians think they are in cahoots with the devil and scientists think they don’t exist. However, psychics have been around since the beginning of recorded history and will continue. This last weekend I met with a brand new support group on the subject of near death experiences. There were 5 psychics in attendence.