Pumping gas in New Jersey

[ElwoodCuse]

Doesn’t a state’s gasoline tax have more of an effect on price rather than location? I always assumed that was why gas is outrageous in New England–the small states need the tax money.

[UrbanChic]

<gasp!> You’d think one of the attendants would have told me tipping isn’t customary!!!

Seriously, I guess not being a native New Jerseyian, uh, New Jerseyite, er, Person From New Jersy, I never knew not tipping was the norm.

I feel so free now! Wait 'til I tell hubby!

[yabob]

*Originally posted by JCHeckler *
**Yabob, San Francisco CA has mandated all-full-serve gas stations. The reason is that it supposedly provides jobs. But it makes their gas prices outrageous. Most of the places in NJ, OTOH, are pretty cheap (compared to NY or MD). **

Fascinating. I’ll have to notice the next time I get into the City. They aren’t in great supply on the Peninsula, I can tell you that much. That SOUNDS like the sort of mandate that comes out of the SF board of supe’s.

[Kalashnikov]

*Originally posted by porsche-924 *
**There are a few self service pumps in New Jersey, especially for Diesel. **

I lived in New Jersey for many years and never saw a self-serve pump for gasoline. Diesel might be considered a special case, like motorcycles are.

It is probably illegal to fill your own motorcycle tank, but no motorcyclist ever lets the attendant do so and no attendent expects to. Chances are the attendent would pour gas not only on your paint but also on the hot engine… (yes I know gas on hot metal doesn’t necessarily catch fire, but why risk it?)

[Rhythmdvl]

[nonGQanswers]Never tipped ('cept in the rain or snow) in Jersey. And on a side note, when I’ve gone through there on my bike no one ever gave a second thought as to myself or other bikers pumping our own gas. I assume other riders here have had similar experiences. [/nonGQanswers]

On to the straightforward GQ answer:

I really didn’t expect to find such a clear statement of reasons. Read into it what you will, but this seems like a pretty comprehensive list. It is from the New Jersey Statutes, 34:3A-4, Legislative findings and declarations:

The Legislature finds and declares that:
a. Because of the fire hazards directly associated with dispensing fuel, it is in the public interest that gasoline station operators have the control needed over that activity to ensure compliance with appropriate safety procedures, including turning off vehicle engines and refraining from smoking while fuel is dispensed;
b. At self-service gasoline stations in other states, cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of the activities of customers dispensing gasoline, or to give their undivided attention to observing customers; therefore, when customers, rather than attendants, are permitted to dispense fuel, it is far more difficult to enforce compliance with safety procedures;
c. The State needs stronger measures to enforce both compliance by customers with the ban on self-service and compliance by attendants with safety procedures;
d. The higher general liability insurance premium rates charged to self- service stations reflect the fact that customers who leave their vehicles to dispense gasoline or other inflammable liquids face significant inconveniences and dangers, including the risks of crime and fall-related personal injury, which are a special burden to drivers with physical infirmities, such as the handicapped and some senior citizens;
e. Exposure to toxic gasoline fumes represents a health hazard when customers dispense their own gasoline, particularly in the case of pregnant women;
f. The significantly higher prices usually charged for full-service gasoline in states where self-service is permitted results in discrimination against low income individuals, who are under greater economic pressure to undergo the inconvenience and hazards of dispensing their own gasoline;
g. The increasing use of self-service has contributed to the diminished availability of repair facilities and maintenance services at gasoline stations;
h. Even in filling stations which offer both self-service and full-service gasoline, customers are less likely, because of the much higher price usually charged for full service, to have attendants make needed maintenance checks, thus causing significant neglect of maintenance and danger both to the customers and to other motorists, as well as the unneeded costly repairs which often result from deferred maintenance;
i. The prohibition of customer self-service does not constitute a restraint of trade in derogation of the general public interest because the Legislature finds no conclusive evidence that self-service gasoline provides a sustained reduction in gasoline prices charged to customers; and
j. A prohibition of self-service gasoline will therefore promote the common welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general.

And lest we forget about those plucky Oregonians among us, consider Oregon Title 38, Section 480.315:

The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:
(1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;
(2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self- service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;
(3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;
(4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon’s weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;
(5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or is disabled, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;
(6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and the disabled in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and the disabled must pay the higher costs of full service;
(7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;
(8) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;
(9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;
(10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full- service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:
(a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;
(b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or handicapped who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices; and
© Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;
(11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;
(12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;
(13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;
(14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;
(15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to the handicapped, to elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;
(16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to disabled persons at retail gasoline stations; and
(17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation.

[CurtC]

Huh. So that explains all those gas stations that keep exploding, and why our courts are jam-packed with lawsuits from slips on oil-slicked gas station drives.

So thanks for posting the ostensible reasons for the bans in OR and NJ. So what’s the real reason? I’m with JCHeckler - I think it’s a jobs thing. Next they’ll mandate that bowling alleys go back to pin monkeys.

[Keeve]

Okay, so let’s get to the very interesting point that I’ve been thinking about, but which ElwoodCuse actually posted: Can anyone post a list of typical gasoline prices, one line per state, and with at least three columns, one for the price of the self-service gasoline, one for full-service gas, and the other for the associated taxes?

Theoretically, if we ignore the taxes portion, then the NJ and OR prices for full-service gas ought to be comparable to the full-service price of other states.

My guess is that it won’t work out that way. NJ full-service gas is so much cheaper than NY’s self-service that there’s obviously other factors at work. When people say that they want NJ to stay full-serve only in order to keep the prices low, I’m inclined to believe them.

[Rhythmdvl]

originally posted by CurtC:

So what’s the real reason?

I’d check, but I don’t have time at the moment to look up the legislative history of those acts. However, my WAG is that those really are the up-front reasons. I don’t think job protection quite falls into the category of Things We Wouldn’t Want Our Constituents To Know About. And from what little bits of statutory research I’ve done (I’m only a 2L) those things in preambles/ declarations generally are a bit over-inclusive rather than under-inclusive. I guess it is much better for an assemblyperson to point to those areas of reasoning that s/he thinks their constituents will respond to the most. I have yet to see (again, remember my limited research) a string of committee/conference reports or whatnot that primarily delve into one reason and then posit another as the ‘real’ motivation. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen or that there aren’t personal or private shenanigans going on to mask the real intent of a bill, or that the lists that do make it are complete. But I doubt Jobs For Our Voters is the type of category to get left off the list.

Also, I wonder if trying to figure out the ‘real’ reason would be a bit more suited for GD or IMHO. My apologies to the mods if I’ve strayed to far from GQ.

[SuaSponte]

The New Jersey “no self-service” law has been in effect for close to 100 years. The legislative purpose back then really was to prevent fires.
Now, the reason is hasn’t been repealed is another question …

Sua

[racer72]

*Originally posted by JCHeckler *
**Yabob, San Francisco CA has mandated all-full-serve gas stations. The reason is that it supposedly provides jobs. But it makes their gas prices outrageous. Most of the places in NJ, OTOH, are pretty cheap (compared to NY or MD). **

My wife and I spent a week in San Francisco last year and I pumped my own gas the time I got gas. The only difference I noticed was the price of gas is about 30 cents a gallon higher than outside of the city limits and how small all the stations are. While driving down to California, I filled up in Vancouver just before crossing into Oregon and tried to drive straight through without stopping. I ended up stopping in Ashland and filled up there because the price of gas was fairly cheap.

[yabob]

Interesting. Oregon’s was apparently passed in 1951, and if you look at that quoted text, it includes in its “laundry list” of reasons:

(14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

The motives of the two legislatures may have been somewhat different.

[Green_Bean]

*Originally posted by SuaSponte *
**Now, the reason is hasn’t been repealed is another question …
Sua **

Why repeal it? Our gas is cheap. If we were to repeal it, then a) all the gas stations would have to re-tool their systems and b) jobs would be lost.

And I kind of like getting my gas pumped for me. When I am out of state, I pump my own because it is cheaper. But how much cheaper could it get in Jersey?

It ain’t broke, so why fix it?

[GilaB]

I know that when there was some noise a few years back about changing the law in NJ, disabled-persons groups protested, saying that they needed the help and didn’t want the inevitable service charge if self-service was possible. I think the gas stations lobbied against the idea as well, although I can’t remember why.

My sister still makes fun of me for the time I drove into a gas station in rural NY and realized that I had no idea how to fill the tank unassisted. I was forced to say to the woman in the next car, “I’m from NJ, where self-serve is illegal. How do I pump my own gas?”

[Hari_Seldon]

Someone said that NJ is cheap because there is no delivery charge. So it costs 20c a gallon to carry gas across the state line into NY? When I drive to NY, I am always careful to fill up in NJ. Here in Quebec, there is at most 1/2 c/liter (not that much more than 1 US cent/gal) between self-service and full-service and often no difference. I almost always go to the place that services my car, just to maintain good will, and that is servce only. It is well worth the quarter or so to have someone else do it. But I have seen in the US a full quarter a gallon difference between self and full service and that is just gouging.

When I was growing up in the 50s, self-service was unknown. I have never tipped a gas jockey and I very much doubt that they have any expectation, even when they have checked the oil.

[Baron]

I grew up in NJ, and went to school in VA. I had a friend from NJ visit me who had apparently never pumped his own gas who proceeded to shoot gas all over the place. He grabbed the nozzle, pulled the “trigger”, saw that the pump was off, then flipped up the on/off lever while holding the trigger.

[TridCloudwalker]

i worked at a gas station in PA for two years, and in that time i saw several instances of people shooting gas all over the place. And for everytime that happened there was a familiar black and yellow OR white and blue license plate bearing the name of the Garden State. It was quite humorous.

[gruvetheory]

As a Jerseyite who’s pumped gas occupationally in the past, pumping my own gas was obviously never a problem. I will say this- 1.) I needed the job to get me through school, and I was glad to have it. If not for the law, it might not have been there. 2.) Now, I’m hating the law. I just bought a 2002 Hyundai Accent. When it clicks off, it’s full. No topping off like the big US guzzlers. This thing is full. NO gas station attendant yet can seem to resist tryin to round it off. Then when it spills, they’re surprised. Dude, just STOP! I don’t care if it’s not even- I dont’ care if I get my pennies and nickles- just STOP…Now I actually prefer getting gas out of state…And may I add, there, Mr Cloudwalker, that us Jersey motorists hate PA left-lane hoggin shore drivers with a passion

[Nametag]

*Originally posted by JCHeckler *
**Yabob, San Francisco CA has mandated all-full-serve gas stations. The reason is that it supposedly provides jobs. But it makes their gas prices outrageous. Most of the places in NJ, OTOH, are pretty cheap (compared to NY or MD). **

I live in San Francisco; neither San Francisco nor any Bay Area city has done anything of the kind. The price of gas in SF is outrageous because people will pay it.

[lucwarm]

So what’s the real reason?

A 'Jersey gas station attendant once told me that the AARP lobbies very aggressively to keep the full-service only rule in place. The concern is that if self-service were permitted, then full service would become difficult to find or expensive in some areas.

[semi-relevant rant]A couple months ago, I had the good fortune of having an attendant who was talking on a cell-phone while dispensing gas. He spilled gas and did a generally poor job because he wasn’t focusing. I wanted to smack the guy and throw his cellphone out onto the highway.[/semi-relevant rant]

Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

what a joke - I’d never let any those folks under the hood. (Not in North Jersey, anyway). Besides, it’s been over a year since one of them even offered to do the squeegee thing on my windshield.

But anyway, I agree the people who say we should leave things alone. If the full-service laws were repealed, it would probably be used as an excuse to raise gas taxes.

[Milton_De_La_Warre]

Correction for Nametag, Yabob, etc.: It has been some years since I lived in SF, but at the time it was all full-serve. This would have been the early to mid-80’s. I rely on my friends who still live out there for the information that SF is still all full-serve.

Though I do not believe the price of gas in SF is high just because “people will pay it”. If I opened a station in SF with NJ turnpike prices, I bet I’d have lines that would stop traffic for blocks if not miles.

The idea that it provides jobs (as in the Oregon cite) is kind of ironic. As a kid, I pumped gas for a while and found it to be one of the dirtiest, most awful jobs I ever had (and it was never customary to tip). So having been there, done that, and got the t-shirt, it seems to me like baning self-serve gasoline to provide jobs is like banning cotton-picking machines or ditch-digging devices for the same reason.