Punk Died Today, Didja Notice?

That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a while, astorian. While I can turn on MTV, or look at the Billboard 200 Album Chart and find more than a handful of acts who would cite punk as a significant musical influence, I can’t find a single art-rock group on there. Eh, Rush is at #29, so I guess that’s close.

Every time you turn around, for about the last ten years, there’s another punk- or ska-tinged/influenced pop band on the charts: Green Day, Rancid, Blink 192, Sum 41, the Offspring, arguably the Beastie Boys (who started out punk before they went rap, and “Sabotage” is a better punk song than most bands have done), No Doubt, Moby (the man covered Mission of Burma, and he’s totally DIY) . . . the list goes on and on.

Where are the bands on the charts that sound like Yes? Or the Moody Blues? Nowhere. Those bands have their fans (hey, I dig the Moodys, even their 80s stuff), but they aren’t exactly sending kids to the music stores in droves to buy guitars and start bands.

Who is? The Ramones, the Clash, the Sex Pistols, the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag . . . Punk a complete failure? Maybe in your dreams, but not in the music world.

Punk as a music genre may die, but if the DIY spirit dies, we’re all in deep shit. And as long as DIY is around, all that matters about punk is alive and kicking.

-Derleth, Ramones fan, NOFX fan, and lover of other random punk bands. Oh, and I’m a Linux lover. :smiley:

[Tool]
All you know about me is what I’ve sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.

I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.
[/Tool]

Until someone can provide me with another name for the genre that many bands I like fit in – Millencolin, Thrice, Lagwagon, New Found Glory, yes, and even Green Day and Blink-182 – I’ll continue calling them punk. (The continuation of this thought being, as long as they’re still making music, the genre can’t be dead.) And no, “that style of music that isn’t like it was in my day back when we had to walk through 50 miles of pouring snow before we could see some little band play in a dingy club” doesn’t count.

Tana

As long as Leonard and Stan from The Dickies are still playing LA gigs, punk still has a pulse!
LONG LIVE THE DICKIES!!!
ps, Lagwagon is really cool…

. . . when I’m not so tired, and with a little less hostility.

To state that a musical genre is “dead,” you have to look just a little bit farther than chart success, and who has had a #1 hit recently. You have to look at its position and influence in the larger music world, and in the popular culture.

Prog rock, as a genre, is, well, pretty stagnant. There aren’t a lot of new prog rock bands popping up all over the place. The same bands that were considered the giants of the genre in 1995 were, for the most part, the same bands that were considered the giants in 1985 and 1975.

Sure, Yes has had a #1 hit–in 1983. Sure, the Moodys have had a top ten–in 1986. But those two bands don’t encompass all of prog rock. Where are all the other prog rock bands tearing up the charts? Most of them have been consigned to chart irrelevancy, maintaining their fan bases (and even picking up new ones) through endless “reunion” and “anniversary” tours and occasional new material.

Think of all the big prog rock bands of, say, the last 20 years, and how many have disappeared completely or become musically irrelevant. Start with the big ones, who still maintain relevancy: Pink Floyd, Rush, Genesis, Kansas (maybe), Jethro Tull (unless we count them as heavy metal :rolleyes:) . . . Supertramp, sort of, and they’re doing a tour . . . does Alan Parsons even work anymore? . . . Marillion, Styx (if you want to get really tenuous) . . . ELP doesn’t exist anymore . . . Eno? But where are all the new bands who started their recording careers after 1980 (the crest of the first wave of punk)? You can probably count them on one hand. Queensryche (sort of), Dream Theater, maybe Kings X, GTR (a one-off), maybe Radiohead . . . there really aren’t a lot.

Then look at the punk bands since 1980. Even if you ignore punk’s direct descendant, New Wave (which means leaving out Cheap Trick, Blondie, the Cars, and the Knack, among others), you can come up with: Husker Du, the Replacements, Soul Asylum, the Minutemen, Nirvana, the Violent Femmes, Dead Milkmen, Dead Kennedys, Circle Jerks, Black Flag, Fear, Sonic Youth, Green Day, Meat Puppets, Blink 182, X, the Red Hot Chili Peppers . . . the list goes on and on.

Prog rock – and I’m not dismissing the genre; I like Floyd and the Moodys and lots of them – is, culturally, a footnote. It’s influence on the culture is almost nil. Where are all the movies about progressive rock or art rock? Depending on where you place glam, you’ve got Velvet Goldmine, I guess. When you look at punk, you’ve got Sid & Nancy, The Decline of Western Civilization, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains!, Repo Man, Straight to Hell, Rock and Roll High School, and dozens of others that use punk and new wave either as a setting or a soundtrack.

Punk, far from dead, did the most subversive thing it could have done–it became the mainstream.

Perhaps your ‘punk’ is different from my punk. It had done its job my about '81 and since then just acts as an occasional reminder that non-violent anger at a (perceived) status quo is good. Especially when done with humour, maannnnnnn

It was just a bunch of working-class kids making a simplistic statement. Any attached ideology was nothing more than those uneducated kids, encouraged by the media and their record company’s to give their genre profundity, sounding off.

If you want to adhere to the spirit of punk, stay angry. Complicated it ain’t.

Hey, you left out SLC Punk!

Ya weirdo!

:smiley:

Other than that, I agree with you fully.

(BTW, what is ‘prog rock’? What musical structure defines it?)

Ditto. It’s become too predictable- some advertisement uses a popular song, and people rant about it. Sure, sometimes it’s ironic, like using “Mercedes Benz” in an actual Mercedes Benz commercial, but nothing to get up in arms about. If I like the song, I usually like hearing a clip of it and if I don’t I usually change the channel. Commercials can be kind of irritating, but not the devilspawn of the earth people are making them out to be.

Well, that one with about five seconds of Thick as a Brick repeated endlessly was something to get up in arms about. Well, not literally, but it was a travesty. Or at least suprememly irritating and stupid.

As for punk, I’ll add that astorian’s standards and eunoia’s seem mutually contradictory. After all, no one is using Tales From the Topographic Oceans in any commercials that I’ve ever heard of.

[Palin]

It’s not dead. It’s resting

[/Palin]

:: d&r, chased by spiked-hair mob::

Yeah. It’s fagged out from releasing an enormous album not two months ago.

Not to mention that it’s pining for the Ramones (miss ya, Joey!).

Beautiful leather! :smiley:

I think two separate debates are being debated in this thread – whether or not the ideals behind punk are alive and whether or not the aesthetics of punk are alive.

I think punk today’s biggest problem is that all the mainstream punk done today has lost the idea behind punk. It’s supposed to be a middle finger in the air towards 98% of the population. In the 80’s you had the good people like Hüsker Dü keeping the tradition alive, but there are few similar bands in the 90’s. As others have said though, punk is still alive, because many bands today make music that still sounds punk.

To continue the prog-rock tangent, I think progressive rock has the opposite problem. The most common prog-rock aesthetic of as much bombast as possible and millions of instruments together is… well, dead. You have Spiritualized and Radiohead and not much more. OTOH, the idea of making music that at the same time rocked and was “intellectually challenging” is alive. Hell, even in punk-driven bands like Sonic Youth. You have the whole post-rock/math rock movement, IDM (I hate that term)/Electronica, noise-driven indie rock…

I’m only double-A, but I’m thinking triple-X…

Snuff still rocks:D

As long as the old albums continue to be printed and new bands are influenced by them, punk is going to still be around.

By the way, I got the Clash dvd West Way to the World last night. Great documentary, and a lot of good footage of the Clash live when they took up residence in Times Square.

Punk’s back, I changed my mind, not so much for the retorts in this thread, but I got a great e-mail with an apt criticism of my OP: “What’s the point of making sacred cows out of those who kill the sacred cows?”

Guilty as charged.

Fuck the Stranglers.

Stigmata! Stigmata! Stigmata! Ahhhhh-Ugghhhhh!

On a side note, you may want to check out Deadsy. I haven’t heard a band sound so 80s (but in a good way) in a long time.

Guys, I’m 41. I was a huge art-rock fan in high school, but it was pretty obvious even by the late 70s that the genre was moribund. Art-rock was just one of many rock movements that had a moment in the sun, yielded a lot of records (some great, some good, some godawful), then pretty much faded away. A few of my favorites in that genre had a resuegence in the 80s, but that was more a last gasp than a resurrection. Today, it’s pretty much dead. So, let’s get one thing straight- I wasn’t claiming that Yes or the Moody Blues represent the future of music! They’re not much more than nostalgia acts now. Sort of like the Beach Boys with mellotrons. Those acts had their day, but that day has been gone for a long time now.

But at least they HAD their day. In their prime, they sold millions of records and filled hockey stadiums. That’s a lot more than any of the punks can claim. Even the few breakout stars of the punk movement almost never achieved the commercial success of the “dinosaurs” they claimed to have buried.

Punk, like art-rock, was a “movement” that lasted a few years, yielded a lot of records (a few great, a few good, mostly godawful), and faded away.

There are only a few ways to dispute the notion that punk was a tiny, insignificant short-lived, failed “movement.” To wit:

  1. Insist that commercial success and mass popularity are irrelevant, as many on this board have done. Even at the height of their popularity, the Ramones couldn’t draw a tiny fraction of the crowds coming to see heavy metal dinosaurs like Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath… but we’re supposed to pretend that the Ramones somehow mattered more.

Sorry, folks, I don’t buy this line of reasoning. This is rock and roll we’re talking about, not avant-garde poetry. High art can be magnificent, even if only a handful of people appreciate it. But rock and roll is part of popular culture… and what are we to make of popular culture that isn’t popular?

  1. Expand the musical definition of “punk” to include practically everything (music critics do this regularly, though any definition of “punk” that includes both Cheap Trick and the Buzzcocks strikes me as ridiculously vague, folks).

  2. Treat punk as a “spirit” rather than a genre, so that ANY music expressing anger (gangsta rap, say) can be embraced as a continuation of the punk ethos.

I keep putting the word “movement” in quotes, because I never saw any common threads linking the various punk bands. I mean, what was “punk” supposed to be? Was it…

  1. An Expression of the Underclass’ Anger at “the system”? Naaah! Too many of the leading punk bands (especially in America) were apolitical, for this too make much sense, and too many of the leading lights of punk wouldn’t know the Underclass if they tripped over it (Joe Strummer, like many of the politically-minded punks, was a rich brat POSING as a proletarian).

  2. A Rebellion Against “Pompous, Pretentious” Art-Rock, and a Return to Simple, Three-Chord Rock." Naaaah! First of all, just like the art-rockers, most of the “punks” were wimpy, cerebral, pompous, art-school dropouts to begin with (geez, can you imagine the grief Keith Emerson would have gotten if he’d changed HIS name to “Keith Verlaine”?). Second, only a few punk bands (like the Ramones) fell into the simplistic three-chord pattern. Blondie and the Talking Heads, for instance, played every style imaginable BESIDES three-chord rock.

“Punk” had no common theme or ideology, and represented too many different styles of music to make for a meaningful movement.

That said, did I/do I like some of the music that came out of the brief punk wave? Sure. I have the Ramones’ greatest hits CDs, and still get a kick out of it. “Never Mind the Bollocks” started out with two great songs (heck, if the Pistols just released “Holiday in the Sun” and “Bodies” as a double-sided single, then broken up, they’d be among my favorite one-hit wonders in history), before descending into utter crud. I always liked Mick Jones as much as I hated Joe Strummer, and often enjoyed the pop-oriented Clash songs.

But I never took punk seriously, for several reasons. First, by the time it came around, I was already reaching a cynical age. I’d come to realize that many of the art-rock and heavy metal bands I’d loved were… well, IDIOTS! Jon Anderson’s lyrics may have seemed profound, but once you hear him talk, you realize… this guy is a MORON! The music still sounded great, but once one grasps just how DUMB the poet is, the seemingly deep poetry starts to seem more like nonsense. It was poor Patti Smith’s misfortune to come along at a time when I was no longer quick to assume that complicated lyrics must be meaningful. In truth, Patti Smith struck me less as a mystical poetess than as… stupid. REALLY stupid. Jon Anderson stupid.

“Spinal Tap” was hilarious to guys my age, because we were old enough to laugh at people we’d once taken seriously. And today, we laugh hysterically at “The Osbournes” because it reminds us how silly we were to think Ozzy was genuinely evil or scary, when he was really just a dunce.

So, when we ex-metalheads hear an old Deep Purple, Ozzy, or Led Zeppelin song in a car commerical, do we care? Not really. We long ago quit taking the music and the musicians seriously. We figure Ozzy is just another guy in show biz, so we don’t mind seeing him make a buck or two.

Punk fans don’t seem to have grown up to the same extent. The fact that the Stranglers FINALLY got a chance to make a buck or two outrages them! As if the Stranglers CHOSE to have zero fans and sell zero records. As if they got into the music business in HOPES of spending their lives playing for a tiny cult audience, and living in poverty!

I mean, get real! NOBODY starts a rock and roll band in the hopes of dying poor and unnoticed. EVERY rock band, even the idealistic ones, hopes to become rich and famous… or at LEAST to make a living. It doesn’t bother me in the least to hear a Ramones song in a beer commercial, simply because I never thought the Ramones music was sacrosanct. Their best stuff was merely energetic and fun, with no artistic merit. Why SHOULDN’T the Ramones have “sold out,” if there were beer companies willing to pay them? And why begrudge the Stranglers a paycheck?

Hearing a punk song (or a 70s heavy metal song) in a commercial isn’t really a sign that the music is dead, merely that the kids who once loved it are now old enoughg and (presumably) affluent enough to be of interest to advertisers. The appropriate response isn’t anger… it’s “Gulp! Oh my God, am I really so old that advertisers think I’d be interested in a product like THAT???”

When you hear “Black Dog” in an Efferdent ad, or the Ramones’ “Glad to See You Go” in an Ex-lax commercial,
THAT will be the time to worry.

Wow, astorian’s managed to say what I put off saying for the last week or however long I’ve been following this thread. And I say all that as someone who loves punk. Who breathes punk. Who thinks punk is, at its best, pretty much the peak of western culture. The question of whether it’s dead or not is so irrelevant - it’s like asking if Surrealist painting is dead. The answer being, sure, maybe, could be, but who cares?

We live in a golden age now where all the great punk of the past is becoming available again - crikey, there’s even a Rocket From the Tombs album out, which I’ve waited about seven years for, but some people have waited 25 years for. All those compilations - Killed by Death, **Bloodstains over … ** - this is really punk for the masses, even though the masses never listened to punk in the first place.

I remember being an uptight anti-establishment university student and thinking that the world was going to end because William Burroughs was doing an ad for Nike. But the fact is, nothing changed, except he got a few more bucks, and those few of us who recognised him got a momentary thrill. The vast majority of people couldn’t have cared less.

Punk is about whatever you want it to be, if it’s dead for you, then it’s dead, but if you get the Shit Street CD by The Pagans and crank it up really high (to coin a phrase), you can still have the time of your life.

I most of all agree with astorian’s statements about how people call everything they like ‘punk’, as if punk is the only thing that’s worthy. Face it folks. If you like Johnny Cash, that doesn’t make him punk, it means that you like a folk/country singer. If you like NWA, that means you like a rap act, not that they’re punk. Punk is not the only worthy aesthetic - there’s lots of musical traditions that are just as glorious and important as punk (or more), and have no connection whatever to the punk/DIY/whatever way of life.

I think it’s entirely possible that they may have preferred to play for small audiences of punks than try to appeal to the masses. A lot of punk music has a bit of an “us against them” attitude to it, and I think that many punk bands wanted to play for the “us” rahter than the “them”. Hell, just as an example, NOFX doesn’t release their songs for commercial radio airplay, even though it would probably bring in more fans/fame/money/etc.

Well, the notion that punk was short-lived would be easily disputed by showing that there are still many punk bands out there, with new bands forming constantly. The notion that it was failed and insignificant could be disputed by showing the influence that punk had on other genres. I guess you could cling to tiny, but that seems overly harsh as well.

Did you notice that most of the fans of punk that have replied to this thread actually aren’t begrudging the Stranglers anything. Although, I have to admit that I’d find it strangely unsettling to hear the Dead Kennedies in an Army recruiting commercial. I guess I could see how “Holiday in Cambodia” would work, but only to the truly irony impaired.

Water- the Dead Kennedys selling a song for Army recruiting wouldn’t be unprecedented!

A lot of people are unaware of this, but the Who actually did several Army recruiting advertisements in the U.S.- at the height of the Viet Nam war, no less.

So, stranger… no, make that EQUALLY strange things have happened.

When i was in a punk band, we didn’t do it for the money, we barely made enough to buy gas. It was for the fun. So yeah, i think the stranglers did ‘sell out’ but we probably would have done the same thing. Drugs, cigarettes, and beer aren’t cheap.