I don’t know if this rightly belongs here or in IMHO, but seems to be a debatable point.
First off, I am speaking as a generalization over all. Likely there will be a few people coming in with anectodal evidence saying how “THEY” don’t wear trendy clothes or care about what others think, and that is a debate all in itself.
My take on womens fashion in general is that it is there to impress other women. Like jewlery, my guess is that the majority of men just don’t care much about it. We don’t care if a beautiful, intelligent women is wearing zirconians or a 7 Karat diamond, or if she is wearing Tommy or Wallyworld sweaters. Fashion is a societial pressure put upon women by other women. To impress or for social standing.
Not dissimilar to how guys like to have the fastest car or the biggest truck. There ARE women out there that care about vehicles, just as there are going to be men out there that pay attention to fashion and care about what a woman thinks. The debate is that on the whole, generally speaking, do women wear fancy clothes to impress other women, more so than other men. Purses and Diamond rings are the prime example, as well as shoes. Seems to me that Guys just don’t really care about any of the three. Women are constantly talking about the three, and buy them and show em off. Guys don’t care, women do, so what is the logical sex they are buying em for?
And yes, they could be said to dress for themselves, but their opinions are heavily influenced (one could say controlled), but the society around them. So they are likely to pick what is trendy even though they conciously think they are picking it out themselves.
Womens fashion is about impressing other women, not necessarily men, though the two may have the same net result. I.E Fashions tend to exist in the happy medium of impressing both genders.
Like any plaything of the wealthy, fashion is meant to show off one’s position to those who are not in that position. There are any number of expensive items of any type one can buy for which there is no reason to lay out the cash except to demonstrate that you CAN.
Fashion is like expensive toys except that the commodity being shown off is not always simply wealth (although that can play into it) but also beauty, allure, and awareness of trends. People who care about fashion look down upon those who wear “last year’s look” or “don’t have a body to pull that off”.
It’s your basic peacockery using a different ruler.
The above is as true of men as it is of women. Lots of men want just the right cut of jacket, the “right” brand of trousers, the “correct” make of watch etc.
Color me clueless, but all I can think of in regards to your post is “so?”
I agree with scots–its all peacockery and vanity and both genders display it.
This is great debates, if you don’t disagree you don’t have to post or read in here. I think it is incredibly rude to go into somebodies debate and say So? Your point? Agree, disagree, post cites, but don’t dismiss sombody’s debate or train of thought as insignifigant and expect a cookie. You may find it so obvious, but I posted this in GD because in another thread women are adamantly denying such a thing takes place. They say they are dressing for comfort and igoring the fashion side, which is funny because I bet a dime to a dollar that they are wearing brand name or fashionable clothes.
Fashion is also largely about social conformity. Try wearing a beach outfit, or a Victorian walking dress with whalebone corset and bustle, to a job interview at any but the most far-out, unconventional companies. Doesn’t matter how successfully your outfit shows off your wealth, beauty, and allure—you probably aren’t going to get the job.
The ability and willingness to conform to social conventions about dress is regarded as a symbol, or test, of social competence and adaptability. Men are just as likely to apply this test as women are, IME.
Epi: *Fashion is a societial pressure put upon women by other women. To impress or for social standing. *
Don’t be too quick to assume that all “guys” or all “women” think the same way. Some men don’t care what women wear, and some men do.
*I realize guys are just as suceptable to societal pressures, sports, cars, etc.
*I realize some guys pay attention to womens fashion, and some women pay attention to mens fashions (more the latter than the former I am sure)
*I realize there are a few people that don’t care about fashion at all. I wear a few name brand things, but I got them cheap and the fact that they are name brand is incidental.
*The debate is whether Women’s Fashion is to impress (or feel superior) to other women, and for the most part isn’t aimed at men at all. (diamonds, purses, shoes, etc)
*I am not trying to post a truism, as some may feel, this is in regards to this thread in which the women there don’t seem to think they are dressing certain ways because other women expect them to.
Epi:The debate is whether Women’s Fashion is to impress (or feel superior) to other women, and for the most part isn’t aimed at men at all.
Well, fashion is pretty much by definition a group phenomenon, right? I mean, it consists of styles and items that are popularly accepted as fashionable. If you’re just picking things you personally like to wear, it isn’t fashion.
Therefore, people who care about fashion are necessarily making their fashion choices to impress other people who care about fashion. I agree with you that most of those people are women, although a number of them are men.
I don’t mean to piss on your debate, but I’m afraid I can’t see what the debatable point is here. “People who care about fashion attempt to impress other people who care about fashion.” Seems pretty obvious.
Are you trying to argue that anybody who is wearing something that could be described as “fashion” is necessarily doing it because they care about fashion? That, I would disagree with: plenty of people just wear things that they like, but a lot of the stuff they have to choose from is marketed by the fashion industry.
I think part of the crux of this disagreement (here, and in the original thread) stems from your assumption that women, even subconsciously, are following some sort of fashion trend.
Note your quote above – “the women there don’t seem to think they are dressing certain ways …” (bolding mine). You appear to be saying “These women are deluded as to why they are wearing the clothes they wear.”
Women (and men) have many reasons for choosing the clothing they do. I will agree with you that, based solely on my opinion, women’s fashions and accessories are developed and chosen to appeal to/impress/humiliate other women. Having said that, to state or imply that ALL women (or, actually, even MOST women) are wearing or accessorizing with that goal in mind is wrong. A woman may be able to afford a $3,000 bra, but she may choose it because it is the most comfortable bra available and couldn’t give two figs that it’s the most expensive bra in the world.
In short, the fashion and accessory designers may be appealing to a certain type of woman (or image), but that doesn’t mean that using those products makes the wearer that particular type of woman.
Well, I apologize for the rudeness, but it was unintentional. What is your point? Is it that women display a greater degree of likelihood to dress in accordance with socially acceptable pre-conceived notions (aka women dress uncomfortably for men’s sake)? Or is it that it is a human trait to want to display for all, with emphasis on the opposite gender, those physical qualities that make them a good potential mate?
Sorry, but the “so?” is my asking what point you want to debate. I am familiar with the forum–I just don’t understand what is under debate here. Please elucidate.
Agh! 2 things. First, I should have read the whole thread prior to answering the post above and 2. aol crashed and I lost this huge post I had made.
I would say that there are some women who live by the fashion world’s decrees and some(most) that don’t. Obviously there are trends in fashion–I suppose I am referring to fads more than general fashion trends. If the premise is that many, most or all women delude themselves into thinking that the dress choices they make are d/t to a subliminal desire to impress/compete with other women, I would like to see a cite.
That said, there is a lemmings to the sea aspect to all fashion that I would be interested in exploring–the other thread talks about jeans and how it is so difficult to find non low-rise ones at present. Why the industry pushes certain looks over others etc is fascinating and puzzling. But it is not the question at hand, so I’ll stop now.
Eww, if I seem to be saying that I am sorry. No, I don’t think there is any delusion going on, just a bit of misinterpretation. Perhaps its a defintion thing, personally I define fashion as " A continuing process of change in the style of dress and adornment that are accepted by a large segment of the public at any particular time." This would encompass quite a lot of the styles of dress. Seems to me they are defining fashion as Fashion, the stuff run-way models and actresses dress in.
I guess the crux of the debate is that I am not being very clear, even though I am trying like hell to to do so. It is aggrevating that so many people are missing my points, but perhaps it is because the points are clearly presented.
Some of it does have to do with my own perceptions. Women going out and buying many pairs of shoes and having matching purses to go with them is pretty common in my circle. Jewelry is pretty ubiquious, and I consider that a part of fashion. Women talking about their clothing is common around me and typically bores me to tears. There are parties that are 5 hours long here that sell nothing but a handful of illegally made handbags made to be identical to the name brand. Racks of shoes adorn many walls here. I find it hard to believe that this isn’t as common everywhere else, and that women everywhere else are wearing sweats and flip flops, not caring one whit about what other women think about their dress. This certainly has to be the rare exception rather than the rule.
Otherwise the fashion industry would go under. If a majority of women didn’t care about fashion, why does 90% of the women I know love shopping for clothes and do so several times a WEEK? Why is it here in my area, it is as odd to see a woman not like shopping as a guy that doesn’t like sports?
If I had a cite, I would have already posted it in my OP or in the adjoining thread. No, I don’t even know if there are studies done on this sort of thing, though I would imagine there is, sociology is a pretty broad field. (no pun intended)
I love shopping for clothes, but I don’t care about fashion. I shop for clothes because I love wearing clothes. I find wearing the same outfit over and over tedious and I prefer waiting longer between laundry days. Also, I chose outfits based on my moods. Sometimes you feel like wearing a skirt and other times you feel like wearing pants.
Most women on here probably aren’t going to be heavily into fashion, hence why you get the results you do.
Women who do care about fashion and spend $2346324632 on designer clothes do so both to impress other women and to get guys. I went to an all girl school and girls that I would see at the mall wearing $1000 outfits would be seen in the classrooms wearing less expensive, less fashionable outfits because there were no men around. If fashion was merely a contest between women, then I would imagine they would wear the expensive stuff all of the time.
I think that is the crux of the problem. IMO, you are basing your presumption on the 90% of the women you know. I don’t think they are posting here! I think they’re at the mall (heh). I don’t think that 90% of all women are that interested in cutting edge, up to the minute fashion(and would be amazed to find such in KC, frankly Milan and NY, yes, but KC?)
Most of the guys I know, are not into sports all that much.
I agree with you re: the industry–it drives the changes in hem length, details, even color, in order to stay in business and also to keep the demand for fresh and new stuff high. And we want fresh and new–no matter what our individual tastes. I just think that shopping and fashion may be a focus and hell, a hobby for some women, but not all.
I would go so far as to say that most women want to appear fashionable but not neccessarily slaves to fashion…do you see the difference?
Whether you’re a man or a woman the purpose of fashion is to project an image. When you put on clothing you might be telling everyone you’re sexy, you’re a professional, etc. The standards change over the course of the years but that’s essentially what fashion is all about, image.
I, too, think you’re working from an assumption that the women you know are the same as women everywhere. This behavior is unheard of in my circle. Shopping several times a week?! Who has time, or inclination, for that?
So I’m thinking that you and I know completely different sorts of people. Perhaps there ought to be a survey of sorts, to even out the sample a bit. You could ask how often a person goes shopping, how often her friends do, and what sort of clothing is to be found in the closet. Maybe then you’d have more information to work with.
IMO people vary widely, but most of the women I know want only a few things out of their wardrobe. They want to be decently covered, comfortable, and perhaps feel that they look nice when in public. “Nice” means reasonably flattering clothing that fits and is in good repair. Most of the talk I hear about shopping–which isn’t much–consists of complaints about the near-complete unavailability of this clothing, so there isn’t much to say. I don’t think I know anyone who owns more than one purse.
If that’s your definition of fashion, it should be obvious why most women dress fairly fashionably. Clothes that are currently fashionable are the ones readily available in stores.
A woman isn’t going to run into very many clothes from far outside the fashion mainstream unless she’s putting extra effort into looking for them. Some women are forced into this position because they cannot afford new clothes and must buy secondhand things which may be long out of fashion, some women just want to wear something different. But when a woman goes into an ordinary new clothing store she’s unlikely to see much that isn’t relatively in-fashion.
*Well, it sure isn’t common in everyone’s circle.
Many women wear jewelry that has special sentimental value, either because it’s a family heirloom or it was a gift from a loved one. That has little to do with fashion.
*Surely there’s some middle ground between what you describe and “sweats and flip flops”! I’m certain that most American women fall in that middle range. I personally have never encountered the sort of women you’ve described here, and I know a lot of women. Actually, I know hardly anyone but women – I attended a women’s college, worked “pink collar” jobs, and am now pursuing a master’s in a female-dominated field. I can only think of one woman I know personally who even came close to displaying as much interest in fashion as these women you know, and she was a former beauty queen.
*I can only speculate that you are either mistaken about the habits of the women you know, or they represent some unusual subset of the American female population.
Fashion is a lot about conditioning. As an example:
I was a teen in the 80s. In the 80s we wore peg legged jeans. Any hint of a flare was so tacky. The 90s had the pant legs getting wider, more likely to flare. It looked stupid to me, because I was a child of the 80s. The people with their flares looked tacky. As the fashion stays around, I become used to it. I go looking for a pair of jeans and end up with a boot cut because that’s what looks normal to me now. Not because it seems “fashionable” but because it seems unexceptionable. So people’s styles change not because they are reading fashion mags and are slaves to fashion, but because what they see every day becomes the norm and most of us wear “normal” clothes.
I think this is what the women on this board are reacting to. You seem to have a black-and-white idea of women and their fashions. It isn’t a choice between living at Abercrombie and Fitch or taking fashion tips from bag ladies- it’s a continuum, and one that can vary from woman to woman and day to day.
While I don’t view shopping as entertainment, I still have a basic knowledge of aesthetics, mostly absorbed osmotically from my peers and TV. It is possible to dress firstly for comfort and secondly for fashion, and still achieve both acceptably well..
