Who made that rule?
They got two years. In Virginia, criminal trespass carries a maximum sentence of one year. That doesn’t strike me as so dramatically different as to invalidate the sentence.
Yes, except for the fact that the purpose of a trial is to determine the factual guilt of the parties. If your complaint was that they didn’t do it, you’d be on to something.
I don’t know that much about the current Russian prison system. If they were sentenced to 2 years, does that actually mean that they will serve the full 2 years, or is there a possibility of early parole? And is there an appeals process?
Don’t hold your breath. Time will pass and these girls will be completely forgotten (and Russian media will do their best not to mention them). The majority of the Russian people will go on as they do: Follow their day-to-day lives, try to make a living, and kinda-sorta generally feeling that Putin has put Russia again in the map as a big power.
My ex-wife is Russian, I’ve been there quite often, and I don’t see any meaningful changes happening in the near future. Or even the far future, to be honest.
Putin is tremendously canny and shrewd, and you can be assured that he will find ways to keep in power and manipulate things to perpetuate himself and his regime.
Of course, many Russians will tell you (in confidence) jokes about Putin and the government(*), but that goes with the time-honoured tradition of “fig v karmanye” – Flip those “up above” the bird under cover of your pocket. Under-the-table defiance that just helps you cope with your life but won’t have any meaningful effect in the long term.
(*) One of them is a delightful variant on a “Spitting Image” classic: Putin and Medvedev are in a restaurant. The waiter comes, and asks Putin: “Sir, what will you have?” “I will have a steak”, answers Putin. “Very well”, says the waiter. “As for (the) vegetable?” “The vegetable will also have a steak”, replies Putin.
Mleh, the sentence in my opinion is unjust…but it’s Russia, not Rhode Island.
I’m sure there will be an upswell of support for these ladies by the rest of the music industry and probably even fans (well at least until people listen to their music, and then most will forget about them.)
The sentence is actually in line with what they were charged with… It’s just that it’s a bullshit charge to begin with.
I would have had no real problem if they were charged with “Melkoe khuliganstvo (minor hooliganism aka Disorderly conduct)” which is an administrative offense punishable by a fine or up to 15 days in jail. It’s pretty clear that whatever the political implications of their actions, they could reasonably be found guilty under this article.
But then they would be released with time served. Instead, they were charged under Article 213 of the Criminal Code (translation), which is “Hooliganism… motivated by religious hatred… towards a social group”. Anyone who’s followed this trial at all knows there’s no way in hell that hatred of Orthodox believers was the motivating force behind the “punk prayer”. Basically, it’s equivalent to what KKK members attacking a synagogue would be charged with. Farcical.
Gotta wonder which of Putin’s lackeys had the bright idea to make a federal case out of this; it’s a PR disaster outside of Russia, and domestically it just serves to further polarize opinions. [As an aside - anyone who thinks arguments on the Internet are needlessly vitriolic should be thankful they can’t read Russian. Forum comments on Russian news sites involve a level of invective, racism, homophobia, conspiracy theory and ad hominems that make Free Republic look like a high school debating club.]
Madonna is supporting them. She is an international star and when she and others go to Russia to perform or whatever, Vladimir Putin will take notice.
She just performed in Moscow on 7 August, and yeah, she clearly showed her support for these ladies.
They dragged off Chess champion Kasparov, beat him for protesting outside the courthouse.
I’m pretty sure we’re seeing the end of any “freedoms” in Russia. Bit by bit Putin is closing his fist. 
Protests will just give him an excuse to escalate new laws. He knows the world is powerless to interfere in Russia’s internal affairs.
A damn shame. We had 20 years to help a free Russia and pissed it away.
Putin recently announced a new military buildup. The next Cold War will be a reality soon.
Addressing the Debate.
Going after a girls punk rock group will help Putin. It’s already been mentioned that their acts inside a church were disgusting. I suspect the average Russian doesn’t mind seeing these girls spend a couple years in prison. What happens to them there won’t be published. It sends a powerful warning to other dissidents too.
This is all part of Putin’s pledge to restore Russia. Cleanup society, rebuild the military and make Russia strong again. Meanwhile he gets the chance to remove any opposition and solidify his power.
It’s basic morality. And its’ what every early Christian did in the Bible. Are you going to argue they are wrong, too?
Whether or not the action is morally correct, which is what is being asked, has jack shit to do with what the law says on the subject. So please address the subject in terms of morality (which, as a Christian, means from the Bible or your church’s catechisms) rather than appealing to the law in our country.
Because, as is, my response to what you said is that our laws are wrong. They didn’t hurt anyone, and that’s ultimately what decides whether an action is wrong or right, and not man-made law.
It boggles my mind that you still can’t get that, if something is asking whether something is right or wrong, the question is about morality, and not the law.
Ehh… former Russian, speaking: punishment’s over the top, but desecrating a church with that sort of a display was horrible manners from the band members.
Well, considering that their point was that it was bad manners for the Russian Orthodox Church to involve itself in secular matters of state (in particular by telling people who to vote for), I think they picked the venue where their message would have maximum impact.
Nonsense.
Plenty of metalheads, inside and outside of Russia, consider the Pussy Riot “protest” despicable. Same goes for that one time one of 'em jammed a frozen chicken up her vagina.
By the way, that earlier “protest” (which hasn’t gotten much attention in Western media, for some mysterious reason) sure didn’t topple Putin, either.
In Orthodox Churches, the altar area is sectioned off by an Iconostas, a sort of faux wall made up of life size icons of saints; this is usually raised up by one or more steps, thus clearly seaprating it from lay areas. Many of them are doors that lead to other preparatory, or sacred areas behind the curtain. In the center are located The Great Doorswhich lead to the altar area. These are opened and closed at differing times during the service. In off times the altar area is closed, and lay people aren’t supposed to be up there anyway. During the service, decons and altar servers may be allowed into the altar area in the corners, but often are restricted to the outside or the preparatory chambers to either side of the altar, behind the iconostas. Women are never supposed to be in that area at all. This is common knowledge among communities with large orthodox populations.
As to Pussy Riot, a couple of points.
When you break the law of the land, you should expect to be punished. Even if it is a stupid law, or an unethical one; when you engage in civil disobedience, repercussions from the state are going to be likely.
Russia is not America and our laws and standards do not apply there. Does anyone know the legal precedents used there? Were they upheld or was this a blatant miscarriage of (what passes for)Russian justice? I’m not usually a respect for authority type, but that only really applies to my own country. When in other countries I do not take America around with me, and I know it. Those arguments are really weak.
A prominent punk band has any number of resources available to them to make their point. They chose instead to break the law and provoke in a pretty offensive manner. This isn’t a couple of random protestors off the street. They could spread their message at concerts, they already had a public stage.
Okay having watched the video, A couple of more points.
I was raised Russian Orthodox so I can give a little insight into the severity of what was going on.
First off, they damn well know they aren’t supposed to be on the altar space. Secondly, all that bowing is a blatant mockery of some of the most formal parts of the orthodox liturgy. To follow that with idiotic dancing about and shouting etc… is pretty much as offensive as you can get in an orthodox cathedral without going into nudity or scatalogical behaviour. They are basically mocking and desecrating the altar space, the most sacred space in the church. That would have been extremely bad even if they were men. Given the rather sexist attitude of the chirch it makes it even worse.
I don’t think any of those guys were security. I did see some nuns, and what were probably just lay members who volunteer. They seemed pretty upset and surprised by the whole thing. I think it took them some time to figure out what to do.
Even though I"m an atheist, and really don’t have a dog in this fight, it does bother me to see someone acting as deliberately disrespectful as Pussy Riot is being. It’s not some sort of legitimate protest, it’s just vulgar, offensive behaviour seemingly for it’s own sake. They could have done their “Punk Prayer” inside and not on the altar and chances are they would have gotten off with a slap on the wrist. Wrapping a turd up in a political flyer does not turn it into delicious candy.
Sure, but the law of the land that they broke is not the one they were charged (and convicted) under. As I said above, they were convicted of hooliganism motivated by… religious hatred, which is complete and utter nonsense, and that is what shows the Russian prosecutorial/judicial system to be the farcical, politician-controlled puppet it is.
And to Waxwinged: horrible manners it certainly was, but that should not be subject to two years v kolonii obshchego rezhima.
NOW I remember why this thread caught my eye.
Eight years ago, I did a thread called “Buh bye Rumsfeld. Seymour Hersh is takin’ you down!”, about the breaking of the Abu Graib torture and and photograph scandal.
That was about American soldiers torturing prisoners on orders that were eventually traced back to the White House. And what were the repercussions? :rolleyes:
THIS story is about some rockers making a nuisance of themselves.
So, I’m not holding my breath for the fall of Empire.
Regards,
Nostradamus
Yeah you sound really neutral on this :rolleyes:
The Orthodox Church in Russia is an arm of the state, especially in all the areas where the state sucks. Why anyone should refrain from “offending” it is beyond me.
I am. There isn’t any reason to go into any religious place of worship and act like a total mocking, ass. It doesn’t accomplish anything at all. What they did was the same as if somebody decided to paint a mosque with pig blood, or refuse to take off their shoes in a Buddhist temple and track dirt all over the place. That wasn’t a political protest, it was just a sort of offensive “performance art” at best. If Pussy Riot wanted to protest the Church’s support of the Putin regime, it could have done so in about a zillion other ways that wouldn’t have landed their asses in jail.
I don’t approve of the government’s tactics, or the sentence.
Not noticed because of the PR verdict is that on the same day, Moscow bans gay pride parades for 100 years.