Well, zev, the simple answer to your question is that Christians are supposed to follow the laws in the New Testament (OK, so they’re not phrased as laws, but they amount to the same thing). But of course, there are no simple answers. As an example, going by the Book, Christians aren’t supposed to eat strangled animals or any meat with blood in it, although we’re allowed to eat the meat of any kind of animal; see Acts 15:29. Ever see a Christian worry about eating bloody meat?
Also, as to The Ryan’s point about the Sabbath, most Christian demoniations still say they honor the Sabbath, but that since the resurrection of Christ, the Sabbath is on Sunday instead of Saturday.
I have a related question, I believe there were various animal sacrifices mandated in the old testament, but I know most Jews no longer perform them. It’s the same thing; did somebody say you don’t have to do this any more?
There have been reports on christian radio programs that someone is breeding kosher cattle for the purpose of just such sacrifices. It this is true, somone is very optimistic about rebuilding the temple.
However, one must consider the source. I am more than a little sceptical about what I here on these programs
I think an additional aspect in the historical development of Christianity. One of the major questions among the early followers of Jesus (post-crucifixion) was whether Christianity was a Jewish sect or should be open to non-Jews. IIRC, there was a three-way struggle between James (strong on Jewish aspect), Paul (strong on non-Jewish), and Peter (in between).
Paul’s vision eventually won out, and some of the laws and observances (kosher, circumcision) were no longer required. One factor in this decision was that in order to recruit/convert non-Jews to this new religion, some of these rules had to be dropped. I would guess that some of the theological justification came from practical considerations.
I’m not sure, so I hope no one jumps all over me, but the simple way it was explained to me is that witchcraft preaches that there is no limit to what man can accomplish through magic. This is an affront to God because man has to have some limits, man cannot become God. Anyway that’s what I was told when I asked. I was pretty young though so that might just be too pat but there ya go anyway.
Oh, I can make this debate even more fun. 
There are two main times Witchcraft is mentioned. Deuteronomy 18:9-13, which call upon the children of Isreal not to imitate the people of the land they were traveling to.
In Galatians, “Sorcery” is mentioned, translating into using drugs and drinking.
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No. The reason this is not done is because the only place that sacrifices could be offered (the Temple in Jerusalem) no longer exists. If it existed today, we would be offering sacrifices.
You don’t have to breed kosher cattle expressly for the purpose of sacrifices. Any bull, goat or ram is acceptable (provided it is blemish free).
Zev Steinhardt
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Fine. But how do you legislate “do unto others…” Does that mean I can do anything to anyone else provided I would want it done to me? Machochists would have fun with that. You would need, I would imagine, a more defined legal definition.
Same thing with “don’t be intolerant…” Should I be tolerant of everything? Where do I draw the line?
No, sacrifices can’t be done there for several reasons. The primary reason is that the Temple does not exist. Now, as to why the Temple is not rebuilt…
Zev Steinhardt
No one has explained it in exactly these terms, so I will throw this into the ring:
I have heard some Christian Conservatives divide the OT law into two parts, the moral law and the ritual law.
The Ten Commandments, prohibitions against witchcraft and not messing around with animals are examples of moral laws, while not boiling a kid in its mothers milk, not wearing two kinds of cloth and sacrifices are examples of ritual laws.
Based on what Jesus and Paul said in the NT, Christians are bound by the moral code, but not the ritual code.
Deciding which laws go where is the fun part.
Okay, first of all, Jesus said that not one iota of the law would pass away until all things be fulfilled, which is suitably vague (i.e. which law(s) and which “all things”).
Jesus was more concerned with the spiritual than with the physical, as is mentioned several times throughout the New Testement. When asked what the two most important laws were, He replied “Love the Lord with all your might, all your soul, etc.” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Later he gave a third great commandment, which is a little harder to keep: “Love each other as I (Jesus) have loved you.”
So those are pretty much the commandments that Christianity is founded on.
Interpretation of these commandments came later. Paul and Peter gave a list of what doesn’t fall under these laws (including witchcraft and sorcery); the big one that isn’t exactly covered by the three commandments is fornication, since sex between any two consenting people doesn’t really hurt anybody outright.
As far as the physical laws go, in accordance with Jesus’ teaching, most Christians believe that they are done away with. Jesus was the ultimate sacrafice, so no more sacrafices needed. The physical laws were important to set the Israelites apart, making them a “holy people”, but since becoming a Christian doesn’t mean becoming an Israelite, non-Israelites shouldn’t have to keep the physical commandments. And, as mentioned earlier, if a non-Israelite doesn’t have to keep the physical commandments in order to be a Christian, why should the Jews?
It was one of the earliest arguements in Christianity: Very often in the New Testement, you will see reference to the “Circumsicion Party”, i.e. the Jews who wanted Christians to keep the physical laws as mentioned in the Old Testement.
However, if you read Galatians, Paul’s main point was that to go back to the physical laws of the old covenant pretty much means forgoing Christianity: The two are not compatible.
You will find this war going on even today. The early Radio Church of God and its predecessors taught that many of the physical laws (though not all… up to HWA) were necessary for Christian to keep.
As to Holy Days and the Sabbath, things aren’t as clear. Paul refers to the Galations keeping the Passover… but with the new symbols (wine/unleavened bread). He also refers to, IIRC, that day, which was usually shorthand for the Day of Atonement, known as Yom Kippur. However, there are several references to the idea that the Sabbath is also a physical commandment and is not necessary.
As far as the ten commandments go, they’re usually regarded by Christians as merely amplifications of the original three Christian laws, with exception of the fourth commandment (Sabbath). The early Catholic church changed the Sabbath-like observation to Sunday for a multitude of reasons, and over the years its keeping has degraded… apart from churches such as 7th Day Adventists.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I personally keep the Sabbath (but am not a 7th day) since Jesus said the Sabbath was created for man; I also keep the holy days with a Christian twist.
I don’t think it’s required, but it’s a nice side to the main dish.
Takes deep breath, hopes he hasn’t gone on too long, and wonder which stereotype from the “Thread” thread he just fell into
I think many Christians would agree with you. That is what Jesus and his disciples taught.
I just wanted to mention that the church once known as the Radio Church of God, started by Herbert W. Armstrong, no longer teaches that doctrine. It passed away with HWA.
ZEV says of Christ’s commandments:
This to me, nicely underscores a major difference in Jewish thinking and Christian thinking (broadly overgeneralizing as usual). Many Christians presume that they are supposed to keep God’s commandments using their own common sense and morality, not pursuant to some definition that they may not understand, let alone agree with. Jews, it sometimes seems to me, to not question the law they follow; they just follow it. (“Not that there’s anything wrong with that!”)
But independent thought in the context of Christianity is not 100% A Good Thing. As I’ve said before, you can get six Christians together and ask them what they think and get six different answers, and all will truly believe they are doing right in the eyes of the Lord. Six Jewish people will all tell you the party line, because they have all been told the same thing (through the law) and they all submit to a single interpretation. But “do unto others” is not a commandment subject to “legislation;” it is something a Christian is supposed to do – not just because we are told to, but because we independently think it is the right thing to do.
Yes, I realize these are wild generalizations, but that’s pretty much the only way we can even discuss religion anymore.
quote:
I have a related question, I believe there were various animal sacrifices mandated in the old testament, but I know most Jews no longer perform them. It’s the same thing; did somebody say you don’t have to do this any more?
Sorry about the snafu Zev, I forgot to note that this was a quote from slackergirl and my post was a response to this question.
In regard to your reply, the “kosher” cattle are not being bread only to be kosher, supposedly, they are being bread to produce a pure red heifer. This will be used in sacrifices and according to prophecy will preclude the direct involvement of the anti-christ.
This is probably getting off track so I will close
[WAG alert: brace for collision with ignorance!]
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the whole idea behind many of the laws given in the Old Testament was that they were given as laws to govern and set apart the Jews. The laws given in the Old Testament were never meant to govern the gentiles unless they lived in Israel. Christians, unless they are ethnic Jews (I know that’s a great debate: I hope this use is acceptable), are gentiles and therefore not subject to the laws given in the Old Testament that specifically apply to the Jews. I suppose there may be more general laws that are ‘words of wisdom’ for every human, good ideas to follow regardless of religion.
I think the whole debate among the apostles about whether gentiles who converted to follow Jesus was influenced by the apostles’ having been Jews to begin with. They were used to the idea that people who followed God had to follow the laws laid down in Leviticus and Dueteronomy, so they assumed these new converts would have to follow them anyway until Peter’s vision convinced them otherwise.
Ok, here is my attempt at this question.
A lot of this has already been explained to my satisfaction already, so I won’t get too far into it (example: kosher).
Yom Kippur, Sacrifices, etc, in other words, all the Law regarding atonement no longer apply. Because they are all superseded by the fact that Jesus was the final sacrifice for remission of sin. No more rituals of atonement are necessary because it’s all been handled. All you have to do is a) believe it and b) accept it, which lead you to c) live like you believe and accept it.
Regarding witchcraft, etc, the Law was given for three distinct reasons: 1) to show what is to be avoided because it is sinful or an abomination to God, 2) to give the Jews/Hebrews a codified culture and way of living that will set them apart from surrounding nations and help them to identify as a people, and 3) food laws for health reasons. (2) has definitely lived up to its purpose, since after 3000 years or so, the Jews are still a coherent, identifiable people. An amazing feat, especially given the way they have been persecuted and attacked over the centuries.
Laws of types 2 & 3 do not apply to gentiles, simply because we are not Jews. Anything done to signify that you are Jewish is not required of a non-Jew.
Laws of type 1, on the other hand, do still apply to all people whether Jewish or not, and whether you recognize God as the true god or not. These are the rules, so to speak, that we as Christians are still required to follow. However, we are not under condemnation for violating these Laws if you are repentent and sincere in your acceptance of Christ. Because the penalty for our sins has already been paid. However, Jesus said all of the Law is summed up in two commandments: Love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. Sins against your fellow man such as thievery, murder, etc, violate the latter commandment (both of them, really), and sins against morality violate the former. In other words, if you love God, you won’t want to sin against him. If you love your fellow man, you won’t want to sin against him either. If you don’t love God or your fellow man, then you’re not a Christian.
By the way, for reference: there was a council held by the apostles (Acts 21 16-25), where they declared which parts of the Jewish Law gentile believers needed to obey. This happened because Jewish believers were angry that the others were not being circumcised, fasting, observing feasts & festivals, etc. Just like on this board. So they came up with this: Abstain from food sacrificed to idols and false gods, from eating blood, from eating meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.
Feel free to show me where & why you disagree.
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I’m a Christian, and I always understood it that the sacrifices in the OT were to ‘wash away’ sin. Since Jesus died on the cross, His blood washed away ALL sin, and His resurrection showed the triumph over death. Therefore, there would be no further reason to sacrifice at the altar.
Sorry if that’s already been mentioned…I kinda just skimmed, so I might’ve missed something.
OK, but this has nothing to do with kosher food. The “red cow” was not eaten.
???
Zev Steinhardt
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chocobo *
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OK, Chocobo, but the question was why don’t Jews offer sacrifices.
Since we don’t believe that
A) Jesus is the messiah
B) The messiah needs to die on a cross for our sins
then the question is still valid.
Zev Steinhardt
That’s a real good question, Zev. I’ve actually wondered that myself. I didn’t read any of the responses, so as not to have my thinking influenced.
I also am certainly not completely familiar with Torah, so I’m handicapped to a degree in attempting a complete answer.
First, not all the Ten Commandments are kept. Observing the Sabbath has fallen by the wayside, strictly speaking. Saturday, not Sunday, is the Sabbath. However, Christians do set aside a day (Resurrection Day) every week to worship. Same idea, but not, as I said, strictly obedient to the original.
My feeling is this (and I come to this partly because I’m reading Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis, and he postulates something similar): Many cultures had proscriptions against murder and stealing, not just Israel. It was easy for Gentile cultures exposed to the Gospel to assimilate these laws into their worship, since, in effect, they already had them. Now, though, they knew Who was giving the laws and why.
Dietary laws are different. In most cases, I would think it would be cultural. Since a bunch of people on the Iberian Peninsula, for instance, had always eaten pork or shellfish, they didn’t really see the need, since they weren’t becoming Jewish, to stop. During the early Church years, there was a debate on whether people had to become Jewish before they became Christians, since the original followers of Christ were all Jewish, and presumably still followed Torah. But that idea was abandoned, and Gentile Christians were Gentiles. Jewish Christians, I assume, could still keep kosher if they wanted to, but I don’t think it was specifically required.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jb_farley *
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is this only a follower of the torah who is impure, or ** anybody** who is impure?
if it’s the latter, what about muslims who walk about the spot every day?
i’m not sure about that. the truly observant don’t really want anyone walking up there, so if they got blown up, i guess it wouldn’t really bug them much (i’m not sure how they justify the fact that muslims and tourists are NOT continually being blown up. when i was there, i didn’t see anyone burst into flames).
i think it is especially bad for someone who follows the torah to break that particular law (even the purified high priest was only allowed to enter the holy of holies once a year, and even then, a rope was tied to him so that if he died, the other priests could get him out without having to go in there themselves–the area was/is considered to be quite literally god’s home on earth). maybe the observant jews just figure that god will get the rest of the sinners in some other way…