Question about Islam and the Mahdi

Great Debates
21

Jomo,

There are, I think, four verses that deal with alcohol.

One verse appears to say “don’t drink” but then there are two verses which seem to say “drink is ok in moderation” and then there is one verse that seems to say “alcohol is a positive blessing” (16:67).

Muslims say that the Koran was revealed chronologically and that the last one (the “don’t drink”) one takes precedence.

Hmm…

So can you explain to me then why God would bother giving us about the other three verses? If we assume that the Koran is the direct word of God then we have to assume that every word therein is intentional and has meaning, whether chronological or not.

God doesn’t change his mind. So at three points (early on) God is saying drink is ok and then at one point (later) God is saying “don’t drink”.

Seems to me there’s only two possibilities - either God doesn’t know what He thinks since He keeps changing his mind or God wants us to take on board the whole Koran in it’s entirety and not consider one verse to have more importance than another (unless God explicitly says this).

Assuming the second of these two possibilities is correct (since God doesn’t change His mind) then it seems that that the pro-drink verses outnumber the anti-drink verses 3-1.

Therefore it seems God is giving more weight to the pro-drink position.

Even the “don’t drink” verse ("…The devil wants only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance and to turn you from remembering Allah and from prayer. Will you not abstain from them?." (5:90-91)) can be interpretated a bit ambiguously if you think about it.

“Will you not abstain from them?” is a question not a command. Advice rather than a firm order.

So all in all, if I had been the person who first got to interpret what the Koran means, I would have interpreted it to mean:

“Drink is harmful and best avoided but God will turn a blind eye to moderate intake as long as it doesn’t interfere with prayer or other aspects of your life”

Unfortuately, I wasn’t the first person who interpreted the Koran, someone got there before me, so now the whole of Islam believes that drink is forbidden. Yet to me as a non-muslim, it seems the Koran doesn’t say that at all.

And what about the Turks? There’s plenty of bars in Turkey and plenty of Turks drink. I know that there are cultural reasons for this but how do Turks square this with Islam?

I realise that I’m unlikely to persuade any muslims with my arguments but, well, I’m just calling it how I see it. For academic sake, I’ll try my argument out on a few muslims and I’ll let you know how I get on.

22

Because maybe if He had banned alcohol straight off, nobody would have listened?

23

Yeah, it was to wean people off alcohol addiction by a gradual process.

So nobody knows anything about the Ottoman hashish ruling?

24

I know that opium and hashish were looked upon somehwat more tolerantly than alcohol in some parts of the middle east in the middle ages and into the 17th century, and think that there were some theological debate over it, but I don’t know the details.

25

Jomo and Capt Amazing,

I had considered the argument that it was to wean people off but unfortunately this argument doesn’t work.

The verse which is pro-alcohol isn’t mildly critical, it is full on supportive of alcohol. It lists alcohol along with rain, milk and wholesome food as one of the good things in life.

Remember the Koran isn’t the Bible. The Bible is lots of different people telling stories whereas the Koran is God speaking directly unto mankind. Therefore nothing in the Koran can be wrong or meaningless or redundant.

If God lists alcohol as one of the good things in life then alcohol is one of the good things in life, no argument. The fact that God later warns that abstention would also be good doesn’t nullify His earlier remark that alcohol is great stuff.

If God was trying to wean people off alcohol then his first remark concerning it should have at least been midly reproving but it wasn’t. His first remark seems to be saying “Wahey, have a drink, it’s great”. In what possible way can this be construed as trying to wean people off alcohol?

If anything, it would make people more likely to drink since it’s now been officially sanctioned by God.

Basically God’s first remark re drink and his last remark either directly contradict each other (which is impossible since it’s God we’re dealing with) or Islam has misunderstood the message (and the last remark wasn’t meant to be taken as a complete ban).

Having said all the above, I’m quite glad people in the middle east don’t drink. The middle east has enough problems without everyone being pissed as well.

re Hashish, in the conversation with the Islamist guy we covered hash. He reckoned “intoxicant” covered grass as well as alcohol. He reckoned a lot of drugs weren’t around at the time of writing the Koran so they weren’t mentioned (but this is patently untrue since hash has been around as long as man). Sorry can’t help you with the Ottoman ruling but this seems to be the line taken by devout muslims.

I should add that I know LOTS of muslims who smoke even though they don’t drink and the hash in Kashmir was pretty kickass and was widely smoked by the (very devout) locals. Although I realise this doesn’t really help with the “official” position of hash in Islam.

26

Are you talking about the Surah “The Bee”? If so, you know it’s not an endorsement of wine, but instead a rebuke at those people who misinterpret the divine nature, right?

In other words, it’s saying that the nature of and the goodness of God should be evident to anyone from observing the world around them. So there’s no contradiction there. If anything, it’s an endorsement of fruit. It’s saying, "See, God has made dates and grapes grow, which you [the non-muslims who don’t accept the message/have false views of God] turn into nourishing food and intoxicants.

Both the Koran and the Hadiths are anti-alcohol. This doesn’t mean, of course, that no Muslim drinks, but I’d be very suprised if you can find any authority, Sunni or Shi’ite, that says drinking is good.

27

Cyberpundit: I’m being lazy :). Here’s at least a few articles to mull over.

A general article on Islamism I came across that covers its historical genesis and various facets. I’m not sure I am in 100% agreement with all of it ( have to comb over it a bit more carefully, I only skimmed ), but it makes for interesting reading anyway and seems a reasonable introduction:

http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/islfnd.html

An article on the roots of the Taliban and the nature of Islamism in South Asia:

http://www.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/metcalf_text_only.htm

An article on Islamism in Saudi Arabia and its complex relationship with the state:

http://www.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/okruhlik_text_only.htm

  • Tamerlane
28

Thanks for the links, Tamerlane. The first one, in particular, covers a lot of what I was curious about.