Question about Jazz Improvising

Cafe Society
41

ETA I could only hear a few bars of "I Miss You* but that reminds me of a number of live tracks I did on Hammond that got lost in the MySpace kerfuffle. It’s kind of too bad, not just for mediocre local bands, like anything I’ve been involved in, but maybe can encourage younger groups to be a bit more circumspect about keeping backups of their mixes or stems.

Oh, I can’t resist weighing in on the “avoid note” thing. Well.

Let’s just say there aren’t any rules that aren’t broken every day and haven’t been broken since forever.

There are, OTOH, principles of music theory and some standards of voice leading.

But if one is carving out a linear, well, line, over a chord progression, what are you going to do?

I know what I’d do: fit the idiom I’m playing in and make it sound good. Anything extra is a bonus.

42

Yeah, it’s always a balance.

One of the things I disliked about standard musical pedagogy is that it was regimented. It taught you, here’s the notes of the scale; here’s the written notation. Let’s play the notes on the staff. And while it can be important, it misses the playfulness. It misses the listening. It misses the inventing.

I’m an okay musician. I have my moments. I’m rusty now. But why this particular thread sticks out to me is because it makes me think about how music is taught, how it is learned. And I think it’s wrong. Or at least slightly misguided.

I have two kids, 6 and 4. The younger one is the musical one, although the older one may have music skills too that are latent. And I want to teach her, but to have her hear melodies. It ain’t all “Mary had a little lamb” E-D-C-D-E-E-E. Hear the melody. Pick it out. And she figured out she can do it in F. And G. And G flat, all black keys. I didn’t sit there and say “play it like this.” I gave her the melody and had her figure it out.

And that’s what should be done, I think, with starting musical learning. Listen. Hear. Imitate. Play with the music. Experiment.

Yes, you do have to develop a basic vocabulary – it is like learning a language in some sense, but most of us learn languages naturally. Why music isn’t more often taught in this way, I don’t know.

So, yeah, learn your basic blues scale. Do your C Eb F F#/Gb G Bb. Play around with that. Have fun with it. Comp with your left hand however you want. You can do your walking bass, you can do your shuffle, or something straghtforward like just playing root-fifth, root-sixth. But play with it. Have fun with it. See what works and what doesn’t, or rather hear what works and what doesn’t, and then just fucking fly with it. Once you got the general idea, let it fly.

43

ETA: No notes are off-limits. In a C blues, I’ll typically do a major and minor pentatonic, so I’ll go C D Eb E F F# G A Bb. With piano, we can’t bend notes, so that Eb-E interplay is kind of crucial. Or crush those notes together. Or crush the F# with the G. That sounds great.

44

And I’m still here, still learning and thinking about the different perspectives - the second video was helpful, to remind me of things to focus on when improvising. Almost all my improvising at this point ends up being eights over some quarter-note left hand. I forgot to let the right hand breathe, to emphasize different notes, try different rhythms, and to not pack it full of so many… notes. I think I’m making it harder than it needs to be right now, so that video was useful to remind me I can scale it back (pun intended) and just do some simpler things and it can still be interesting.

Lots to think about and practice on now. Thanks so much for all the feedback and ideas!

45

In my experience, the biggest problem with conventional music education is that they teach you the concept of scales first, and THEN teach you the concepts of chords and intervals - if you’re lucky. In a high school concert band, you might not learn about the latter two at all. In jazz band, you will likely learn a little bit about chords and modes for the purpose of improvisation, but in all likelihood it will be presented in a formulaic manner, as if it is merely a matter of following measurements in a recipe.

The thing is that most musicians, even most music fans who can’t play an instrument at all, intuitively understand certain music theory concepts like intervals and modes, insomuch as they acknowledge that certain combinations of notes and chords can evoke moods and emotions, but they don’t have the vocabulary to talk about it. They know what it “feels” like to hear it, but they lack a way to mentally catalog and categorize it.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve played with good musicians - guys who can play their ass off, who’ve been playing rock music for years and who can name every single track by The Who or David Bowie - but if I tell them to play a major sixth chord, they will have absolutely no idea what I’m referring to. I can tell them “play an E Maj7 chord” and they can do it, but if I say “hit the major seventh when you’re soloing over that E chord” they don’t know what I mean. They have these gaps in their vocabulary. At some point they learned to play a chord labeled as “a major seventh chord” on the guitar, and they intuitively know that it sounds “dreamy” or “romantic”, but they don’t know WHAT the major seventh actually is because nobody taught them about intervals.

46

[quote=“pulykamell, post:42, topic:921367”]And that’s what should be done, I think, with starting musical learning. Listen. Hear. Imitate. Play with the music. Experiment.

Yes, you do have to develop a basic vocabulary – it is like learning a language in some sense, but most of us learn languages naturally. Why music isn’t more often taught in this way, I don’t know.
[/quote]

Well, yeah. I’m not so sure that it isn’t done like that, at least among people who can throw down at their instrument. It certainly was in the “old” days when musicians had a stack of records, and maybe a few people had a pencil and some staff paper.

The whole chord=scale thing…well, that’s a whole thing. I guarantee after how many transcriptions of Joe and Wayne and Herbie and everybody, it doesn’t break down like that unless one is a true believer or has a book to sell. Or, these days, some “app” that is supposed to do something or other.

47

What do you mean about the chord-scale system? That it’s worthless as an exercise, or it should be taught differently, or…?

48

There are no wrong notes. That’s Kenny Werner’s philosophy. :wink:

49

OK, I’m going to let one more video fly, and then I’m done before you are all sick of me:

Oh, and WARNING there is some strong language – it’s just how I talk, especially when I get emotional about music.

50

That’s me. I’m totally self taught on the keyboard and play exclusively by ear. I can’t read music. My fingering is …problematic. Transposing and even scales are very difficult at this late stage. If I learn a song wrong (which is every song), it’s almost impossible to correct. This gets me by for the kind of group I currently play with which is an improvisational jam band (no plan and never the same song twice!) but I basically can’t really talk shop to other musicians. It’s frustrating and I really wish I’d had some lessons as a kid.

Extra shout out to @pulykamell for the great videos and commentary. Consider yourself nominated for the Pulytzer prize for Mixed Media Jazz Improvising Editorial.

51

Lessons as a kid probably would have just wasted your time, like they do for most people who took lessons on some instrument as a kid and then never played again. You’re playing in a band RIGHT NOW, that’s more than most people can say, whether or not they took lessons as a kid. Don’t get frustrated. It’s NOT impossible to correct, whatever it is you think you’re doing wrong.

What songs are you trying to learn? What instrument do you play?

52

Dude, I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed seeing you in person. I don’t even play piano, and I was delighted to watch these.

53

It’s about what you said: I lack the vocabulary and, to stretch the analogy, the grammar. I don’t really know the relationships among notes described in the OP and later in the thread. I know, by ear, when they’re wrong and when they’re not wrong but I can’t articulate why.

I play keyboard/piano. The last song I tried to learn was Chicago’s Saturday in the Park by watching one of those Rockband-type youtube vids with the descending notes. The fourth of July happened to be on a Saturday this year so it was trending. One particular sticking point was playing adjacent keys (the G&A and the C&D in the first few seconds). It doesn’t feel right and, as said, I’m stuck in my ways and, since it doesn’t feel right, I play it wrong. I haven’t been able to get past the first few chords.

54

There are many different forms of jazz. One thing I like to do is center on the IV chord major augmented 7 in any given song with a real slow tempo, resolve to I chord major augmented 7. You’ll hear it in classical music like the opening of Satie’s Gymnopédies No. 1. Even just those two chords gives you lots of leeway. With a slow tempo and simple accompanyment it’s great for trying out melodic improvisations, and I guess this is what I would recommend for beginners. For example, the main part of Magnolia by J.J. Cale uses the same structure.

If you’re struggling for notes, it can help to think about the chord you are using, the chord you will be using next, and any transition chords you can think of in time. There are lots of opportunities to walk up or down with a few notes, or you can go full chromatic and walk with full chords in both hands (example: Dmin7->Ebmin7->Emin7). If you’re working lots of minor7 or major7aug chords, the 9 note fits right in. You can also think of it as chords on top of chords, for example when playing an Fmaj7aug (basically Fmaj + Amin) your right hand might jump from A minor 2nd inversion to E minor 3rd inversion while the left hand plays Cmaj7aug (basically Cmaj + Emin). You can also make your melody do the 3- or 4- halfstep jumps that match the chord you are in, or that match a transition chord while you are physically moving the left hand. You can also do a repeat or hold on the same note, depending on how your rhythm is going.

Sometimes you can even repeat a few notes in quick succession as a kind of flourish, especially in blues. I think the prime example is like, if you’re in C, Eb->E->G. Or maybe high C->Bb->G.

~Max

55

Thank you. I appreciate your kind words.

56

Those make Maj7 chords, not augmented chords. You have to stack an A Maj triad on an F to make an Fma7aug chord (F A C# E); an E Maj triad on a C to make a CMaj7aug chord (C E G# B).

57

Ouch. In my defense, it was like 2:00 in the morning and I haven’t dealt with chord names in years…

~Max