After you go a certain distance from the shore (3 miles, or so I’ve heard, or was that 12 miles?), you are out of United States territory.
If that’s true, could I take a ship filled with things that would be illegal in the U.S and anchor myself just outside that 3 mile (or whatever) limit? For example, could I sell Cuban Cigars, marijuana, and alcohol to those under 21 without fearing the wrath of the United States?
Where is your ship registered? If it is a US-flagged ship, then you are subject to US laws, I think. Also, maritime piracy is on the rise, so you will have to keep an eye out for those scurvy seadogs.
You may be outside of US territory but you are probably not outside of US jurisdiction. You might get away with it the first time around, but at some point you will have to make landfall to load up on supplies to sustain yourself as well as resupplying goods for your operation.
Then there’s that vague notion of intent. Just taking your comments at face value, you intended to break US law by sitting pretty “just across the border.” However, in this case being across the border is not on foreign territory but on the high seas. You could vey well come under some maritime law as it applies to pirates (is there a law?) and find yourself under the guns of the Coast Guard, or even the US Navy.
You forget one simple fact - if you are subject to US income tax, the IRS can go after you anywhere in the world. They’ll just wait for you before pouncing.
Yes.
(I am operating from early-mornig memory, so I am willing to be corerected. )
Under the Law of the Sea, the first twelve miles are national, just exactly the smae as the land. The first 200 miles are the Exclusive Economic Zone, no fishingor mining without permission. Some rights (to mining) extend to the contenital shelf (100 M?).
Note that some crimes (slavery, drug-running and pirate broadcasts) can be stopped by any nation even on the high seas.
Moderator’s Note: I don’t really see why this shouldn’t have an answer, so I think I’ll ship it over to General Questions.
This has been discussed a billion times and I am not exagerating. Search the archives.
Being on the high seas does not mean you are not under the jurisdiction of some country. If your vessel is of US registry you are under US jurisdiction.
yeah … but…
FWIW there are plenty of casino ships operating quite legally out of US ports.
Obviously, the ships could not sail with contraband goods on board, but if they were delivered to the ship at sea…? (I’m only thinking of Cuban cigars - of course)
My guess on that, johncole is that gambling is prohibited (in most states) by state law, not federal law. As such, you can probably contravene state law outside the 3m zone (since you’re no longer in the state in question), but you’re still subject to federal restrictions.
However, IANAL, and I’d be appreciative of any lawyer (hey, SuaSponte, ya out there?) giving a definitive answer…
Zev Steinhardt
Most cruise ships are under foreign registry and as soon as they are out of US waters you are strictly under the laws of Liberia or Panama or whatever. This sometimes shocks passengers and employees alike but you can’t have it both ways. there was a case of a young woman who disappeard on a cruise and her parents were frustrated that no authorities were doing anything about it. And some guy who was an employee and wanted to collect some indemnity. No dice. You are in Africa for good and for bad.
What about constructing an off shore platform. Can someone just start building in the middle of the ocean and open up a cuban cigar stand?
Hypothetical scenerio:
(1) I got a floating platform just outside the 12 mile limit away from the coast of Florida.
(2) This platform has a cuban cigar stand.
(3) The Cuban cigars are supplied by boats coming there from the island of Cuba.
(4) At no time does any contraband enter U.S territory. Any cigars sold to U.S citizens must be smoked on the spot as a condition of purchase.
They’d probably get me on the taxes if I tried to do that, but let’s say I wasn’t a U.S citizen operating this floating store. Would the U.S interfere?
I’m curious about the cigar issue. As far as I can tell through a limited search, the only thing illegal about Cuban Cigars, is bringing them into the US, or in the case of the OP, into US waters. That would be the 12nm limit (Customs waters, and territorial seas for certain issues). This violates the TWEA, Trading with the enemy act, as reported by one website I saw. Then there’s this website that states certain US citizens may in fact possess the sought after cigars. I could find nothing that stated US citizens couldn’t have them anywhere in the world, or more specifically, on the High Seas on a US flagged/foreign flagged vessel. If the vessel was attempting to bring the cigars across the 12 limit, then a violation has occurred.
And while we’re at it, the alcohol to minors is a good question as well. AFAIK, there are no Federal laws dealing with alcohol and age. Those are State laws, right? I think that technically, the only law broken in this case would be if you brought someone who’s under 21 into state waters (3nm) while they were intoxicated.
Paging SuaSponte, paging SuaSponte, your presence is requested in GD…
When I’m at work tomorrow, I’ll check some Maritime Law Enforcement Manuals, and ask around.
The drug thing has been hashed out before, and it’s covered under Federal law, and the US has jurisdiction, so that’s out.
Paul in Saudi: The 12nm limit is what many nations claim, including the US. But some nations claim more or less. Some claims go unrecognized by the Convention, such as Cubas claim to the Old Bahama Channel. Been through there many times on Cutters, but as soon as the gun boats showed up, we hopped up onto the bank. That was back when the Soviet Union was still around- we cruise through there without problem nowadays. IIRC, the USN still won’t go through.
You are speaking of Right of Approach(ROA) and Right of Visit(ROV) rules. You are correct in that basically, Right of Approach states that any vessel on the high seas, including warships, may approach any other vessel and ask questions. It should be understood, however, that the latter of the vessels are in no way obligated to comply/answer. Right of Visit gives warships on the high seas the right to board any other vessel that is suspected of : 1. Engaged in slave trading 2. Unauthorized broadcasting 3. Piracy 4. Statelessness 5. Although flying foreign flagged, is suspected in reality to be same flag as warship. For the purposes of the LOS convention, “warships” of US flag are Navy and Coast Guard.
zev_steinhardt On many a night cruising the Florida straits I had to contend with the gambling cruises that hung out just past the 3nm limit until the wee hours of the morning. Those things are lit up like Christmas trees out there.
k2dave Good question. Maybe you could? Of course, you’d need to sell a helluva lot of cigars to cover that cost of construction. You get good money for em, tho.
First, a few links.
This websight has a lawyer who researched the laws, and states in part:
The key here being, “person under jurisdiction”.
Then, there’s this Gov’t website that states in part:
From these cites, I would be led to believe that Cuban cigars are out unless you are one of those “liscenced” persons authorized to travel to Cuba, in which you may bring back $100.00 worth (READ: politician who likes a good cigar)
From these cites, I also conclude the following: I’m lucky I’m not in jail :smack:
I would interpret this to mean that the floating cigar stand 13 nm off the coast is OK, only if all your customers are Mexican or Canadian. If that’s the case, I would move my stand to the Yucatan channel. It’s close to Cuba, and to Cozumel (more specifically, Carlos & Charlies!!! WOOOHOOOOO!!!)
As far I know, a U.S citizen can travel to Canada and Mexico and purchase cuban cigars there as long as he doesn’t return to the United States with them. I don’t see how that would be any different than someone who buys cigars from this hypothetical floating cigar stand.
I thought that to be true as well. However, if you look at the quoted text in my last post, it states that persons subject to US jurisdiction may not purchase, import, transport or otherwise deal with merchandise which: Is of Cuban origin, Is or has been located in or transported through Cuba, Is made or derived in whole or in part from articles which are the growth, produce or manufacture of Cuba. If this is true on its own, then folks can’t motor up to the cigar stand, because on the high seas, US citizens are subject to US jurisdiction. Regardless of what they are floating on. The answer to this, I believe, lies in 31CFR515. I’ve read enough CFR’s to know this: reading CFR’s is best left to someone other than me if at all possible. Perhaps I’ll have some coffee tomorrow and dive in. If anyone cares, the CFR’s can be found online here.
Most of the websites I found alluded to the illegallity of importing cigars. However one gov’t website said this:
My question is what does this mean? Does it mean we can’t smoke the cigars, even if we’re in Canada or Mexico? I dunno. Hopefully some lawyer type who’s fluent in legalese will be along shortly.
…and permanent residents?!!
So my Canadian friend who is resident in California can’t smoke a Cuban cigar in his own homeland if he returns for a visit? [sub]Er, not that he would; he doesn’t smoke, but you get the idea.[/sub]
Some of you might be interested in Sealand (discussed here many times).
Many cigar shops near the border in Canada see most of their traffic go to Americans wanting cuban cigars. Are you telling me that all those americans are committing felonies punishable by a $50,000 dollar fine and 10 years in prison even if they never bring the stogies back into the states?
Actually, I’m not telling you anything concrete. I am, as you are, trying to get the straight dope on this issue. It would appear that the floating cigar stand is out, and I’m guessing that technically, buying cigars in Canada is OK, all due to jurisdictional definitions. Again, I haven’t yet seen the exact wording of the law, so I don’t know. I could be wrong.