Do vietnamese names follow the same general trend of other Asian names, in placing the family name first?
So (for example)–Pres of South Vietnam Nguyen Van Thieu was of the Nguyen family?
I’m part Vietnamese. The answer is yes, pretty much the same as the Chinese way, except with a little difference in the way the names are passed down and some differences in the way females are sometimes named.
Thanks, WJS. I suspected as much; I see “Nguyen” used as a last name by Vietnamese here in the states, and suspect that the name has been anglicized.
A follow-up question: during the war, the last 2 presidents of South Vietnam were Nguyen Van Thieu and Nguyen Cao Ky. They were invariably referred to in the US media as “President Thieu” and “President Ky”, respectively. Does that mean that we were calling them the Vietnamese equivalent of “President Bill” and “President George”?
I don’t know Vietnamese history as much, but my mother says they’ve always referrd to the president as President [First name]. So I guess, yeah.
And I’m not sure what you mean by Nguyen being anglicized. You mean pronunciation wise? Because Vietnamese has been using romanisation for a long while now.
Sorry; I meant that the person so named places it at the end of his names, in the Western naming fashion.
Nguyen, the family name, is rendered in the VIQR system (telegraph method) as Nguye^~n. The Vietnamese language is written with the latinate script using diacriticals.
As for how the names are ordered–in Vietnam, they follow this order: Family Name, Middle Name, Personal Name. When “Europeanizing” them, they follow this order: Personal Name, Middle Name, Family Name.
The “Anglicizing” of the name Nguye^~n stems from two things:
- English does not have the ng sound at the beginning of a syllable.
- English is not a tonal language as Vietnamese is.
The answer to the question about calling them President Bill etc. is quite possibly “not intentionally.” Or it could’ve been intentional given that there are quite a few people in Vietnam with the family name of Nguye^~n.
Sorry about having to use VIQR, but I’m at the airport right now and the computer at the Interent cafe doesn’t have the right fonts on it and I can’t install them either. The link I provided above, though, does show how it looks in real life.
Should’ve said:
The Anglicizing in speech of the name stems from those two things.
While we’re on names, I have two questions about status.
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In the Vietnamese translation of Harry Potter, Hagrid is called (I’m leaving out diacriticals) Lao Hagrid. “Lao” isn’t in my dictionary, making me think that it may not be in common use, but online it’s translated as “old.” So what is “Old Hagrid’s” social status? Will I find that Dumbledore also calls him “Lao”? And am I “Toi” in relation to “Lao”?
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I am a middle-aged woman on faculty, and I’ll be meeting with faculty from a university. Should I address professors about my own age as “Anh” and “Chi,” or am I better off with “Ong” and “Ba”? Or is there a better honorific?
Lao sounds to me like the translator’s just using a Chinese name for the Potter story. As for how to address the professors, you can’t go wrong with “professor” for them!
I just had a chat with both my parents and apparently the Vietnamese have been addressing the president informally in the examples cited above all the way back to at least the Vietnam War in reference to the South Vietnamese president of the era. My father lived most of his life there and said usually they refer to the president by their full name, sometimes “President Full-name,” and only very occasionally by the informal “President Given-name.” He said it was for all of them, Nguyens or not. I have no idea if the US media simply got it wrong the way People magazine keeps referring to Chow Yun-fat as, “Mr. Fat,” or they were just trying to discern which president Nguyen.
I still don’t understand the Anglicanizing question, though. Surnames are surnames and when filling out forms or whatever in America you follow the American custom and just put the surname where you’re supposed to put it. Even if the media refers to her otherwise, I’m pretty sure Zhang Ziyi’s credit card says Ziyi Zhang. As for the above answer, I’m even more confused. I’ve never seen Nguyen spelled any other way (unless you’re talking about the ethnic Chinese Ruan/Yuen, which is actually the same as Nguyen, but that’s a different matter).
This is the usage I am familiar with as well. Using someone’s full name carries the most gravitas and formality, though title/honorific-first name is perfectly polite usage; honorific-surname is seldom used. For example, when introduced to “John Smith”'s wife, it would proper to refer to her as Mrs. John. As for usage in the US press, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they’re probably deferring to local usage. Much like how Vietnamese would refer to “President Thieu” but “President Nixon”. Otherwise there’d be nothing but Mr/Ms Nguyen or Tran ;).
“Lao” does indeed mean old. When paired with someone’s name it’s the equivalent of saying Old Man Hagrid. In this case, it has no special status connotation. “Lao” is also an archaic second and third person pronoun. It’s usually reserved for someone really old… like desiccated old. You could use “ong” but writers like to use “lao” because it has a more literary air and sounds less coarser, I guess.
My vote goes to “Anh” and “Chi”.
I am also confused on the Anglicisation question…
Nguyen is also a (relatively uncommon) male given name.
Couple other things just to add to the confusion:
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The practice of adopting one’s middle name for general use is more widespread in Vietnam than in English-speaking countries. It’s even more widespread amongst Western Vietnamese because often they will go with the name that’s easier to pronounce for Anglophones. So Nguyen Thi Kim Huong would be Huong to her Vietnamese friends, but might adopt Kim for everyone else.
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The “President Bill” or “Mr Bill” thing is a form of address some Vietnamese use out of politeness. They usually stop using it after spending some time in a Western country, but English speakers in Vietnam have called me “Mr Andrew”. I really like it, actually.
While we’re on the subject of Vietnamese naming customs, is it common for female children to be named after their mother or their maternal grandmother? (Similar to naming sons after fathers in the English world.)
(I have a Vietnamese friend whose daughter shares her name, which made me wonder. Her female grandchildren by another daughter also have her name as part of their names.)
I forgot to mention that it’s also common (or it used to be) to address people as Mr. Bill, Mrs. John, etc.
Back in Korea, I get called Teacher (Real First Name). And many people add an “s” to it.
Bolding mine. I’d have thought it was as common for female offspring to be named after relatives as it is for male offspring - altho’ without all that “junior” / “the third” rubbish - but then I’m only half-English and my “world” is “European” 
This was the info I was looking for, in my poorly worded “anglicize” question. Thanks.
Monty’s info about spelling & pronunciation…interesting, but not what I was looking for.
I can only speak for the US. You do see female children occasionally being named after grandmothers, but it seems quite rare for a daughter to be named after her mother.
Of course, it is quite common for a son to be named after his father. (The “Jr.” phenomenon.)
I’m just wondering whether daughters being named after mothers (or grandmothers) is more common in Vietnamese culture.
I see you’re in Paris, Cat Jones. Is it common in France for daughters to be named after mothers?
Actually, it’s exceedingly rare for a child to be named after a parent, grandparent, uncle/aunt, anyone the parents actually like etc. Adopting the elder’s personal name as a middle name is common, however, re-use of a personal name is simply not done in most circles. While in many Western cultures it is considered an honour to have a child named after you, the opposite holds true for Vietnamese culture. This stems from the belief that one day your children will make you curse up a blue streak and say: “You goddamn brat, [ElderName], you wait til I get my hands on you, you little snot”, which would be extremely impolite to the Elder.
This leads to a lot of “but, wait, isn’t your 2nd cousin twice removed from your mother’s side named John?” When the parents finally settle on “Robert”, invariably they’ll find their neighbour’s grandparent’s sister’s son’s or something is also named “Robert” and’ll resort to calling “Robert” “James” around the house :smack:
My knowledge is specific to the South. Results may vary. Guarantee void in Tennessee.