Had many big O’s while attending Baylor. Is Papa Rollo’s Pizza still there? Havent been since 89. Keep in mind that Waco has a population of over 100,000. 200,000 including its suburbs. Way better than SFASU at Naca-nowhere. Socially, there are no official Fraternity houses, but the old neighborhood around it has cheap houses, for abuse by rambunctious students, and apartments to rent, thus unofficial fraternity social houses exist. Although the old houses are being largely replaced by new, expensive apts.
Both science and religion professors (at least back in the 80’s)were quick to shut creationism debates. The religion department is liberal for Baptists.
I paid $240 a month at Baylor Manor apartments, A dump, just a parking lot away from Collins Hall. There are fundies galore but Baylor has its share of debauchery, drunks, pot smoking, ectasy, ect. Plus plenty of people somewhere in-between.
If you did not grow up baptist, be ready for a little shock.
I also considered UH, as well as some other schools, when I was applying to law school. At risk of sounding snobbish, none of the other schools in Texas or the surrounding states can touch UT Law. When you pair the institutional respect given to UT with its low cost of attendance, I really believe UT stacks up favorably to many Ivy-League law schools. Many of my colleagues went to such schools and graduated with well over $100,000 in student debt; I make the same salary they do, and had a fraction of that debt load to repay.
UT is generally regarded as a top 10-20 school, while the others are lucky if they make the top 50. I’m skeptical of ranking educational institutions, but I can tell you that in a bottom-line way it makes a difference: you get a lot more employers seeking UT grads than you do employers seeking UH grads. That goes doubly for out-of-state firms. You are also more likely to have the chance to work for a large firm, e.g., one that pays a lot more, going to UT. That may not be your ultimate goal, but it is nice to have the option.
Another thing to consider is the way most law schools are graded: it is a pure bell curve system. You are in total competition with your colleagues. One test at the end of each course determines your grade, and your grade on that test is not determined by objective “right” or “wrong” answers but rather by the quality of your essay compared to your peers. If you write the best exam essay in the class, you get the A. If you write a brilliant essay, but everyone else’s is a little bit better, you get the D. It’s brutal. Pair that with the fact that the lower down the ranking scale you go, the higher you must rank in your class for employers to look at you, and the case for going to a high-ranking school gets better. A Harvard Law grad in the bottom 50% can still get a pretty good job. A UT Law grad will have to be in the top half. At Baylor or UH, you really need to be in the top 10-15%. At lesser law schools, you probably need to finish at the top of your class.
If you’re interested in “prestige” positions, choice of school is also important. Supreme Court clerkships – probably the most prestigious thing someone can do out of law school – go mostly to Harvard and Yale grads. UT grads usually manage to snag one or two spots. You’d have to look long and hard to find Baylor or UH grads on those rolls.
[UT Booster mode off]
As for transferring, it’s not unheard of, but it rarely happens. By and large, where you start is where you finish. Choose wisely in the first instance.
As an aside, I had the infamous Professor Lino Graglia for several classes at UT, if anyone is curious (Lino prompted a march by Jesse Jackson in Austin and protests and sit-ins at the Law School during my second year; with Lino around, life was never boring).
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All of the big Dallas and Houston firms (and the smaller ones, too) interview at Baylor and UH, and I suspect San Antonio firms to, too. Big Austin firms tend to focus more on UT since it’s in their own backyard and since many students fall in love with Austin, but they may also go to Baylor and UH.
One thing to be careful of: law firm hiring is very economy-dependent. If the economy hasn’t turned around in three years, you may be SOL even if you’re a really good student. I was lucky to have graduated in the middle of boom times, but I’ve heard horror stories from those who graduated in the early '90s.
I graduated from Baylor undergrad in 1995, and Rollos was still going strong. For those not familiar with Waco, Rollos is a really cool pizza joint in Waco. Road Rash just brought back a lot of memories for me – when I was at Baylor, one of my roommates worked at Rollos. This worked out really well, since he was allowed to take a free pizza home after each shift. When I was in college, “free pizza” was pretty much the only thing I needed out of life (the other being “free beer”).
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This is spooky. Junior year, I lived at (IIRC) Baylor Arms, which was across from the upperclass girls dorms (the names of which escape me) that are right next to Collins Hall. So you lived down the block from me, though admittedly at an earlier time. It was similarly cheapo rent for me (and it was a dump, too). Now I live in New York, so my rent is slightly higher…
I have had friends who are Hindu go through the law schools in Houston (U of H) and in Austin (UT). None of them had problems. Of course, UT is the better school, by leaps and bounds.
Most college towns, filled with mostly young people, tend to be more liberal. I bet this even applies to College Station.
Anyway, I went to UT. Austin is a blast. Now I am in Houston for medical school. I’d just like to add that I would be glad to see UT kick OU’s ass this weekend.
Depending on your priorities, it really isn’t as important to get in the finest schools and be in the top of your class as most people seem to think. As Dewey suggests, top schools and straight A’s will buy you some prestige, status and perhaps a little better salary the first few years of your career, but that’s about it.
My advice is to go somewhere where you feel comfortable, work hard - but don’t obsess, and keep your life rich and full. Of course, that’s just me.
I would love to go to UT Dewey…in fact it is my top choice. However, the reality is that something like 80% of the seats are reserved for in-staters and the remaining twenty percent apparently have competition along the lines of Harvard. Sucks to be a Yankee I guess. What bugs me is that I fall smack dab in their calculatable median-but with the whole in-state deal going I’m sure my chances drop precipitously.
As far as Baylor and UH are concerned-don’t worry they did make it into the top 50. You’re totally obsessed with your school, man :). I’m a moderate school snob-went to undergrad at McGill so I’m not exactly going to run out to some random school just because they’re throwing money at me. I agree about having to probably be in the top percentage to do really, really well…but their average graduating salary at Baylor is (well in last year’s lit) pretty high (I’m not sure if they calculate that like how they do at BC…which is to say by asking everyone to write in and then only the rich ones write in bouncing the salary up by about 20K) and the bar exam pass rate is really high and all the reviews that I’ve read say that if you go to either UT, UHouston or Baylor and do pretty well then you can do pretty well for yourself in the state of Texas. All I can say is this…until my ass got laid off this morning…my corporation’s head attorney was from St-Louis University of Law and he pretty much admitted that it was a shitty school but he was pulling it in!! Man, your post was freaking depressing!! Now I’m not sure if I want to go at all!!! Oh well-here’s hoping the economy will turn around and I won’t have to jump off a building rather than pay back my loans over a period of a million years.
Hey…since I got FIRED, FIRED, FIRED…today and got twelve weeks of severance to boot (hi niwroc, stop calling me curry-girl)…I’m actually taking a road trip after I get all of my applicatons and pretty much hitting up all the schools that I’m applying to. So if anyone wants to write in and tell me what I should see in Waco, Austin, Houston, St-Louis, Boulder, Norman…feel free to do so. Actually, screw Norman…I’ve seen that.
Oh yeah-if you want to kvetch about Longhorns kicking Sooner ass then I posted a thread on MPSisms or whatever it’s called. Go Longhorns!!!
Please do not buy into this make-good-grades-or-you’ll-be-miserable-for-life crap. It’s all a big lie. Sure, you want to work hard and do your best, but doing your best may mean sacrificing a little GPA for a rich and varied life. Enjoy your time on earth and keep your priorities straight. Of course, if being the richest person in town is your top priority, then ignore all this stuff I just said.
sorry if i’m coming off as money being my only priority. i just want to see texas and own a ranch with a horse and a goat one day.
financial goals I do have
*essentially not getting out of school and being fuc.ked because i chose a school that didn’t allow me a high enough salary to pay off my loans.
That is all. So that’s why I looked at the average starting salaries. As for UT…I just kind of want to go because I’ve never gone to schools with good sports teams. Ever. I just want to cheer on my school for once. Anyhoo-I’ll check out the stuff you guys have been talking about in Waco.
If you like Track, Baseball, and Women’s Soccer, Baylor does great in sports. If you’re talking football, however…
Also, Houston and Austin are sorta okay, I guess (and I apologize to all Austin dopers out there–I live in an area where there is great disdain for Austinites and Austin immigrants), but for comprable living conditions, you are going to pay nearly twice as much in rent if you chose either of those towns over Waco. (Note that this is anecdotal, based on my own living experience in Waco and those of my many friends who either have lived in Austin/Houston or are currently living in Austin/Houston).
Anyway, enjoy your road trip. And while in Waco, be sure and check out the Texas Ranger Museum and the Dr. Pepper Museum. And Bush’s ranch in Crawford is less than half an hour away!
Wasn’t there a thread recently on “Things to do in Waco?”
Of course, I don’t believe at any point that I said anything remotely approaching “make-good-grades-or-you’ll-be-miserable-for-life” (or even “go-to-a-prestigious-school-or-you’ll-be-miserable-for-life”).
What I did say is that going to a more prestigious school opens up more career options for you, opens up the possibility for higher pay early in your career, and generally speaking makes getting a job much, much easier.
Law school is a three-year commitment that is very expensive to boot. Student loans have to be repaid and can’t be discharged in bankruptcy. A student who ignores the dollars-and-cents aspect of his choice of schools does so at his peril.
Yes, there are many successful attorneys who went to less prestigious schools. It is also a fact that it is more difficult for a graduate of a less prestigious school to get a job upon graduation. The fact that some such grads have gone on to great things later on in their careers will be cold comfort to a recent grad who can’t get a job as an attorney.
Obviously, there are plenty of people who make far less money than large-law-firm-lawyers who lead wonderfully happy lives. That should not prevent an aspiring law student from doing a hard cost-benefit analysis with eyes wide open in deciding where (and indeed, if) to go to law school.
Actually, I’d avoid doing comparisons on the “averages” the law schools put out. You know, lies, damned lies, and statistics…
A better approach would be to find out what representative firms interview at your law school and find out what they pay. Also note the cost of living where the firms are located. A good source of firm salary information is http://www.infirmation.com, although it is skewed towards larger firms.
Keep in mind that, generally speaking, larger firms have a standard pay scale for their associates. If you get a job at XYZ Firm, it doesn’t matter whether you went to Harvard or to Podunk Law, you’ll make the same salary (of course, the odds of getting the job are higher if you went to Harvard. :))
