You do realize that the percentage of households with firearms has dropped since the early 70’s. We own more guns in total, but that’s because each individual owner tends to have more guns. Since a person can only fire one gun at a time, I will grant you that large gun collections do not themselves drive violent crime.
Of course, there is still the little matter of our murder rate being vastly higher than our peer countries, I’m seeing scads of cause and effect there, and would be happy to claim that the massive quantity of guns we have is the cause of that delta.
While that report (it’s not a study, it’s a report. It’s actually a call for additional research to be performed) does indeed have that passage, their references don’t seem to agree. I took the most recent reference that they cited (PDF) and it shows that you were less likely to be injured if you had simply ran away and hid or called the cops or guards. Threatening with a non-gun weapon even beat out using a gun as far as reducing injury likelihood. What that study does show is that if you respond by defensively firing a gun in a personal contact crime situation then zero percent of the situations looked at resulted in a serious injury. Of course, that is a sample size of 45 situations over a 10 year period. Since it’s such a small sample and since all other situations end up with a 0.5% chance of serious injury, a single outlier would have made that prognosis null and void.
The same survey found that 61% of the population wants stricter gun control than we have today. Big fan of that survey, are you?
Oddly, at the same time, that survey you cited above shows we have fewer households with guns than we did 40 years ago. In fact, the number peaked in (wait for it), the early 90s.
Answer: I doubt I would hear it because I’m laughing loudly at all the grammatical errors in the above.
But, just for fun, let’s say I did hear such an attempt. I would wonder why they were trying to break down my door when forcing it open would be easier. Then I might wonder if it was law enforcement because criminals tend to not want to attract attention to themselves.
Again, for fun, let’s say they finally succeed in breaking down my door and they aren’t cops. At this point, I would set one of my limbs ablaze. Obviously, I couldn’t shoot an intruder with this “firearm”, but imagine how crazy I would appear! Would you want to mess with such a crazed person? I doubt it, just as I doubt an intruder would either.
Stop worrying about our safety and go polish your pistol. Do make sure to unload it first though.
Shout “Would it kill you to case the bloody joint, you potato ? I’m still in there, genius ! Fuck off !”
You see, as it happens, criminals are much, much less interested in getting into a potential fight with a home owner than gun pornaholics are about shooting home intruders. Which is why the overwhelming majority of home intrusions happen during the day, while people are at work and kids are at school.
Google Home Invasion robbery sometimes, where the idea is to find the people at home so that they can be tortured, (and often killed after) to disclose where the money is hidden. Those are often carefully 'cased". These violent sociopaths often throw some rape in there, too.
Notable examples
The Chauffeurs de la Drome (The Heaters of Drôme) were a gang of four men who carried out a series of attacks on remote dwellings in the Department of Drôme in south-west France between 1905 and 1908. They became notorious for roasting the feet of householders against the fireplace, to torture them into revealing the hiding places of valuables.[27][28] Responsible for as many as 18 murders,[28] three of the gang were guillotined on September 22, 1909. The fourth died on the penal colony at Devil’s Island.[29]
…
More recently, two paroled criminals were each charged with three counts of capital murder during a home invasion into the Petit family home in Cheshire, Connecticut, on July 23, 2007. During the invasion, the mother died of asphyxiation due to strangulation and the two daughters died of smoke inhalation after the suspects set the house on fire. The men were charged with first-degree sexual assault, murder of a kidnapped person, and murder of two or more people at the same time.
A home invasion that police said included torture and rape shattered the quiet of a Grandview neighborhood early Sunday and left four people injured.
Attackers raped a woman, scalded three men with hot grease and injured one of the men with a power tool. The invasion in the 11800 block of Delmar Avenue lasted more than three hours, authorities said.*
So your running theory here is that a supposed 3 percent drop in households with guns since 92 is responsible for a 40 percent drop in crime rate?
Meanwhile lots of states have incorporated CCPs.
Claim that cause and effect Delta if you’d like, science doesn’t agree. Which is why only carefully selecting who gets to be peer countries makes that true.
Meanwhile again Canada,Norway,Sweden , Switzerland,Greenland,New Zealand all very high in gun ownership on the world scale all extremely low on the world murder rate scale. Must be some other factor at play.
While no countries have higher gun ownership rates, 82 have higher murder rates.
Greenland? Greenland? Seriously, Greenland? Perhaps the factor is an efficient mass transit system, capable of moving tens of people around in the major population centers…
Not at all, as that would be stupid; taking two variables and two points in time and calling it a valid correlation. What I was doing was mocking your post where you imply that increased gun ownership is responsible for lower violent crime rates, using two variables and two points in time.
In most, if not all of these, the intruder was armed with a gun themselves. So, your examples just say that we should work to do what we can to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, to prevent these sorts of tragedies that you are claiming to care about.
I knew this guy, and I know that he owned a gun. Didn’t do him any good.
Do you have any suggestions for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, or are you just going to continue to complain when criminals use guns to assault, rape, and kill homeowners?
That’s not this thread. I mean we could hope the magic [COLOR=“DeepSkyBlue”]rainbow[/COLOR] unicorn would wish them all away, but there are 300 MILLION guns in this nation. There are no quick fixes and certainly none without amending the Constitution- which aint gonna happen.
This thread is "Question for anti gun people? home defense?
*Question: Lets say your at home and someone is outside trying to break down your door and get in to either rob or hurt you. Yes, you can and should dial 911 (assuming your phone is working) but you need protection NOW.
What would you do since you dont own a firearm?*
Your answer seems to be “lobby for stricter gun laws”. Which will help in this situation, exactly …how?
That’s my whole point, as far as factors that effect crime rate go, gun ownership ranks pretty low on the list, regardless of what your standpoint is.
Studies conflict everywhere you turn as to cause and effect regarding basically any law or aspect of gun ownership.
People have developed strong feelings on either side but all evidence taken together indicates a big fat net neutral. Whatever negatives are offset by positives, and vice versa, or in other words it’s all situational.
When what’s good for one goose is bad for another, applying it to the gander is senseless.
Which indicates to me that the debate is a big fat waste of time and resources that could be put to better use energizing actual causal factors. It’s like the violent video game debate, waste of time scapegoating for the real and underlying problems.
patiently Yes. It does happen in so vanishingly rare cases that you had to find an example from 1908. Hence why I said “overwhelming majority of cases”. Since the probability of somebody trying to break my door open seems pretty goddamn low to begin with (insofar as it hasn’t happened to me in my 30+ years on this shit planet, nor to anybody I know or have known. Robberies yes, muggings in the street yes, one attempted carjacking but zero home invasions while somebody is home), it seems somewhat frivolous not only to concern onerself not just with that percentage, but a vanishingly small subset of that low percentage, to say nothing of trying to prop it up as a valid reason to somehow claim guns are absolutely needed and people who don’t own them are irresponsible weirdos playing with their life.
Furthermore, the specific subset of criminals you’re talking about (and again, they’re very, VERY rare) tautologically comes to the job prepared for a fight. Which means they won’t be alone, they’re used to fighting, they will be armed and will probably be packing stuff that by law they shouldn’t and I don’t. You can Rambo it all in your head if you like, but your handgun won’t beat an entire gang who get the drop on you in the middle of the night.
My advice to you would instead be to hang a white handkerchief to your houseplants, as it has the added benefit of keeping you safe from tigers without posing undue risk to your family or yourself should you be depressed. I do it, and I’ve **never **been mauled by a tiger OR home invaded. In contrast, I think you’ll find that nobody who has been mauled by a tiger in history had taken the time or made the effort to hang white handkerchiefs to their houseplants. Which just goes to show this shit works.
That’s not fair. He could also submit to all of the invader’s demands in the hope of preserving his own life and then spend the rest of his days trying to convince himself that he did the right thing.
Actually there are thousands of home invasions every year. I just used the one listed on Wiki- I can give you another hundred of so, if you like.
And yes, those home invasions have been foiled by a armed homeowner: Not nearly as common, but it does happen.
An attempted home invasion to steal marijuana from a Corning residence ended with one of the home’s occupants shooting and killing two of the robbery suspects Tuesday night, according to a news release from Tehama County Assistant Sheriff Phil Johnston.
STRATHMORE — One suspect is dead and another suspect was still at large Tuesday night after what officers are calling a home invasion on the south side of this town.
Tulare County Sheriff’s Department Capt. Mike Boudreaux said two adult Hispanic males entered a home in the 23000 block of Avenue 194 at about 5:30 p.m. One suspect was shot by the homeowner and subsequently airlifted to Community Regional Medical Center in Fresno, where he was later pronounced dead.
*CORNING — Two of five people suspected in a botched home invasion robbery were found shot and killed around 6:15 p.m. Tuesday at the 3200 block of 99W.
The remaining three suspects, a woman and two men, are still at large, according to a press release issued Wednesday afternoon by the Tehama County Sheriff’s Department. The deceased suspects are both men but none of the five suspects has been identified.
The woman parked in front of the home and told the residents her car broke down.
Austreberto Valencia, 23, went to assist the woman, the release said. As he approached the vehicle, at least two of the men, one wielding a handgun, forced him to return to the house.Valencia got hold of a semi-automatic pistol and shot two of the would-be robbers, the release said.
“Preliminary investigation indicates they died as a result of gunshot wounds to the head,” the release said. “Autopsies are pending.”
Two of the suspects, a man and the woman, fled in a white, four-door, 2006 Dodge Charger southbound on 99W, the release said. The vehicle was lowered and may have tinted windows with no front license plate. The remaining suspect fled on foot heading to the northeast.
Deputies recovered the pistol used in the shooting as well as a semi-automatic rifle.*
The home invaders outnumbered him 5-1 and were heavily armed, including a assault rifle, but the homeowner killed two and scared the rest off.
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/article/20150924/NEWS/812025937
*Weeks before a homeowner shot and killed an intruder near Lantana, two men from the same gang tried to break into the home with an AK-47, according to the Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Office.
PBSO arrested Nathaniel Rennard Lowe, 24, Tuesday with one charge of attempted home invasion with a deadly weapon. Lowe and another man, who was identified but not arrested, are accused of trying to break into the home on Hibiscus Tree Drive, south of Hypoluxo Boulevard and east of Seacrest Boulevard, in late July.
The same home was invaded Aug. 13 by two other members of the Zoe Family Mafia gang, according to deputies. In the course of the invasion, the homeowner, 27-year-old Juan Flores, shot and killed Obrian Simms, 23. His accomplice, 26-year-old Tavarress Alexander Wilson, is facing a second-degree murder charge for the death.
Lowe and his accomplice went to the home July 28 in a black, two-door Chevy Monte Carlo, deputies say. Lowe waited in the car while his accomplice walked to the front door holding a box of food. Flores opened the door and told the men he didn’t order food, knowing right away that the men were attempting to rob the home, he told deputies.
Lowe then came out of the car and approached the door with an AK-47 rifle, the victim told police. …
Two weeks later, Simms and Wilson were burglarizing the home when Flores returned shortly after 8:30 p.m. One of the burglars raised an assault rifle when Flores told them to stop. Flores then fired four shots with his Springfield .45-caliber handgun, killing Simms and hitting Wilson in the face.*
They had assault weapons, he had a handgun. Still, two bad guys down, one dead, homeowner- not a scratch.
Police say when the two broke into a house in the middle of the night, the resident inside shot them with his shotgun.
27 year-old Jorge Elugardo and 24 year-old Brian Kennedy are accused of Burglary, Menacing, and Theft.
Police say the crooks kicked in the front door on Sunday night at a house on Fountain Mesa Road, just south of Highway 16.
The suspects got away, but not before suffering gunshot wounds.
“This is where I shot him. There is debris from his jacket and stuff,” said Cody Buckler pointing out the holes in his hallway.
He didn’t ask any questions when he saw two masked men in his living room. “I had adrenaline running through me.”
He just fired from his gun. “There was another guy downstairs, so I aimed over here and when he came up the stairs, I fired at him. He ran back down to the basement,” said Buckler.*
That’s true. Unless they just kill him so he isnt a witness. After raping his wife and daughter. Then killing them.
But yeah, owning a gun is by no means the best way to defend your home. Have good solid doors, **and a PLAN! **Make sure you have a phone nearby, a cell phone. Talk to your family, tell them the plan- *“OK, wife, hide in the closet and call 911. Teen son, run & climb over the back fence and wake mr Johnson next door, get him to call the police. Younger Daughter- hide under your bed. I will delay and distract them.” *That is actually better than just owning a gun, honestly. But add to that getting a gun, and being trained to use it, and having the will to do so- that can also help. Of course if you have kids, *that gun has to be locked up. *
So, yeah, I dont think a gun is the #1 bestest idea. But it is a solution. So is having a good alarm system, with panic buttons and of course- that* plan. *
Doing nothing but carping on a message board about there being too many guns and SOMETHING must be done- that isnt any help.
Yes, but that would be moving the goalposts. Of course there are home invasions. And often the idiots don’t do their due diligence in making sure people are away, which can turn ugly if somebody on either side of the equation panics and has a gun.
But that’s not what you were talking about. You were talking about criminals who purposefully go into peoples’ houses to harm, torture, kill or rape them. I’d say those hardly number in the thousands per year, even in the US.
As for solutions to home invasions, the problem lies with the question. It’s like soldiers who justify their shooting and killing of other soldiers with “well he was trying to kill me, I had no choice, it was him or me !”. Which, while not true in and of itself (they could have let him kill them. That is just as valid a choice.) also implicitly ignores the entire chain of events and decisions, many of them the soldier’s, that landed him in this position to begin with.
So, solution for home invasions ? How about making sure wealth is well distributed enough and education + jobs are attainable enough that fewer people need resort to crime in the first place ? How about investing in drug rehab and/or legalization and improving mental health facilities, thereby slashing another root cause of a crime ? How about making health care more available and cheaper, and also maybe just maybe send the fuckers at Purdue who pressured doctors into prescribing Oxycontin like it was candy to jail forever and a day pour encourager les autres vulture capitalists ? How about funding the police, not just as stick wavers, cornerboys clearers and demonstrator thumpers, but as effective investigators who are part of and respect the community they’re policing ? How about making sure that the people who do need locking up actually stay locked up instead of letting them loose a couple years later because their bunk is needed for that other guy who sold three dimebags once ?
And so on, and so forth.
When you only consider the last event in a long, long chain of causality, you’re considering the very least efficient way of preventing said event. By definition.
Yes, let’s solve poverty and world hunger.:rolleyes: Seriously?
So, your solution is a wealth redistribution program-one that few economists would be optimistic as to the chances of it happening in America- how exactly will that help when there is a armed gunman breaking into your house right now?
Or to either A: build more prisons- when American has the most prisoner per capita in the free world or B- abrogate the US Constitution and SCOTUS rulings on the Eighth Amendment. Riiight.:rolleyes: I pick- *neither. *
Now look, I have suggested ending the war on drugs, making better mental health available, etc- all as things that would lower the suicide rate and violent crime rate.
Sure. *But none of those things help when there is a home invasion going on right now.
*
Whether that home invasion is from stupid or incompetent crooks who didn’t case property or those planned to find the people at home to torture the cash hiding place out- it doesnt matter. *When they are breaking your door down right NOW, which is the premise of the OP- *what are ya gonna do? You can’t call Ghostbusters, and long term plans to visualize world peace and end hunger aint gonna help in the here and now either.
