Question for Christians... ah, heck, for Jews and Muslims too

In this thread, I wrote the following:

My question is, to the god that you personally believe in, will it? I help my fellow humans, I work honestly, I love Pricegal deeply, I don’t commit crimes and I generally try to be an all-round good guy. But I’m not a believer in any god and when I do follow religious laws it’s because I happen to agree with them. If just you turn out to be exactly right about the nature of God, what will happen to me after death?

I don’t want to start a religious debate, I’m just curious as to what people really think.

I’m an agnostic myself, but I think that most people seem to see God as some old guy they could hoodwink or pacify. Yet if they believe their own press about him, he’s omnipotent and omniscient. That being the case, you might as well get up and say something like that. If that is what you really feel, He already knows it. All you might lose is a few points for tact.
“The one represented by that red light (in the Church) already read the contents of my heart long ago,” says Henry II to the admonition that he watch his tonguw while in Church (in Jean Anouilh’s Becket). Exactly right, if you really do believe that God is omniscient. That more people don’t realize this is proof that they either don’t believe God to be omniscient, or that God really does care a lot about deportment, or else haven’t thought their theology through.

It’s also one reason I’m agnostic. Life’s too short to duck about and cower over might-be’s. Live your beliefs and acknowledge your doubts. If God exists and is annoyed by my attitude of not believing on the basis of woefully inadequate evidence, I’m really damned already anyway. Might as well admit it, as far as salvation is concerned.

From the Christian’s point of view…

The Christian believes that no one (save for Jesus Christ) ever lives it “right”. Christians believe that God’s expected moral standard for mankind is perfection - one single mistake means you are have ‘sinned’ and hence does not qualify.

Christians also believe that there’s nothing a man can do to enter Heaven. A Christian could pray all days, read the Bible inside-out, share to at least one person everyday of his life and still not be accepted at the end.

The only thing that matters is the relationship between the person and Jesus Christ. Despite what many church-goers and bible-readers would have others to believe, that’s the only defining thing - the person’s relationship with Jesus Christ.

And when you say “relationship with Jesus Christ”, what do you mean? To do what Jesus would do?

Honestly, I feel a bit apprehensive about contiuning this thread because I don’t want this to turn into a Great Debate, to prove whether Christianity is really true or whether Jesus really exists. And I somehow always get the feeling that Christians are not really welcomed (and aware of the impressions that many church-goers and bible-readers give), so a disclaimer first - I am not saying whatever I say here is the undeniable truth. It’s just what I think it’s the truth.

Christians believe that at the beginning mankind and God are supposed to have a cordial, personal relationship, a friend to friend relationship or something more akin to a parent-children relationship (a good parent-child relationship, I have to add).

To cut the long story short (about the whole of the Old Testament), the relationship was broken, God desired the relationship to be restored and that where Jesus entered the picture. Jesus died on the cross, paid for the mistakes that men has done and hence allow men to once more have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

So basicially if a man believes that he has sinned, God exists, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that Jesus paid for his sins and willing to accept Jesus as his Lord then it’s done.

Though the Bible describes the relationship between Jesus and a Christian as one of a Lord and servant, the Bible also at times protray the relationship as one of friends. I personally believes it is a balance, but this is a sore point for me too (a reason why I stop practising the ‘Christian’ religion for a year or so). Some church-goers would have you believe that Jesus or God is a hard task-master and he would be displeased if you don’t do this or that while some protrays the relationship as where Jesus understands each individual’s problems and weakness.

So to answer the OP, it depends on whether one become a ‘Christian’ by acknowledging that one has been in the wrong, and will always do wrong, that he would never be good enough to meet God’s standard, that he accept God’s forgiveness and that he wants a relationship (as described above). All that he has to do, to quote Augustine, is “love God, and do as you wish” (but “love God” itself has a lot of explanation to be done with it).

And naturally, do love God first one has to acknowledge that He exists.

And no, to be a Christian doesn’t mean you have to bash gays, stop playing RPGs or Dungeons and Dragons, go to Church every week, study philiosphy or other religions. Those are additions by men.

Okay, serious, this beginning to sound like a Four Spiritual Law tract so I sure others would explain it better. So I’ll end here…

In Judaism, there are three relevant beliefs:

  • First, one is judged by one’s actions, not one’s beliefs. Yes, you should do things for the right reasons, but it is better to do the right deeds for the wrong reasons than to do the wrong deeds for the right reasons. Thus, someone who spent their life doing deeds of kindness to others would presumably be judged as righteous, pretty much regardless of their beliefs.

  • Second, no one is perfect, but there is perfect justice in the hereafter, so there would be punishment for one’s failings. This is usually viewed as a period of time of “working off” sins.

  • Third, Judaism believes that the soul is called to account after death. This is not necessarily like a court on earth (although it’s often portrayed that way in stories.) You don’t necessarily get a chance to “plead” your case, you certainly don’t get a chance to try legal trickery or exploit loopholes. It’s perfect justice, together with perfect mercy, which is not within human conception.

Which I don’t and won’t prior to seeing ip. So if you’re right, I’m screwed. What happens to me? Hell?

Sorry that I keep asking; feel free to ignore me. And Christians who don’t agree with LostCause: if you do want to debate this, take it to Great Debates. I want to hear about everyone’s personal beliefs, not about whose belief is “right”.

So, provided I avoid too great transgressions, I’m essentially in the clear?

Interesting. I thought this was a Christian concept.

Uh yes, Hell.

But I don’t think it is the usual lake of burning fire or thick smogs of sulphur. The Bible actually never did say much about Hell, save for the last book of Revelations, where the Devil, along with his followers, are cast into a lake of burning fire.

But Revelations is not a book that one could take literally. It’s a book of much symbolisms, metaphors and as such, I am doubtful about Hell as a place of fires.

It was also mentioned in one of the parables of Jesus that Hell is a hot and burning place. But I think that’s a parable, a story that Jesus told to others, so I couldn’t be sure.

But the fire is not the main attraction. The Bible described it more of as eternal seperation from God. That’s the main thing. This is what Christians are saying - people have imperishable souls. After one dies his soul endures. If he/she trusts in Jesus Christ and so on he/she will be with God. But those who don’t will have to go somewhere else…

And it is not like a threat from God. “U better do this or else it will be Hell for you!”

The Bible did state that God does not wish to see anyone in Hell. Second, the Bible also did state that one doesn’t need to be a state of moral perfection to enter Heaven, because no one could achieve it and people who enters Heaven enter by grace, not by good deeds or what-not. People go to hell simply because people do wrong, people need to punished or pay for their wrong-doings and hell is the punishment.

God couldn’t just pluck people out from Hell. He couldn’t because He has to follow the rules that He set - if someone sinned, the sin must be paid for (hence, I believe the law of scarifices in the Old Testament). So what God did is to pay for people’s sins by scarificing Jesus Christ so that people could go to Heaven instead.

The reason why God chose not to let non-Christians in is not because they haven’t done enough good deeds or what-not. It’s simply that non-Christians are not sinless and God couldn’t endure sin (sort of like a water/oil thing, to quote an example). Note that Christians are declared to be ‘sinless’ not because of their own conduct or what not, but because their sins have already been paid for - someone else have been punished in their stead.

Anyway, that from a Christian’s point of view.

This is commonly known as the concept of purgatory, which is also in the doctrines of Catholicism. Christanity, AFAIK, has always refered to the Protestants Churches and after, though usually Catholicism and Christanity are lumped into one by secular sources.

Purgatory is not in the doctrines of the Christian Churches (by which I meant Protestants and other related denomations)

Drifting off-topic here, but I have to ask. You’re saying Catholics aren’t Christians? That Christianity essentially didn’t exist prior to Martin Luther? I know that can’t be what you’re saying, so what am I missing?

I try to be as accurate as possible here.

Whether Catholics are Christians I couldn’t really tell. My personal opinions are “same roots, different branches”. There are a lot of things in Catholicism not found in Christanity.

But within Protestants and its related denomations, yes Christians are different Catholics. I sure someone else would be better qualified to talk about Catholics’ belief.

Christanity did exist before Martin Luther. Protestants did not. After Protestants break off from the Catholic Church, somehow Protestants call themselves Christians and Catholic Church calls themselves Catholics and maybe Christian at the same time.

So sometimes it’s much more accurate to say Post-Protestants churches or something like that. It could get real confusing.

The history (quite condensed) is somewhat like this. Christanity begins when Jesus Christ died and resurrected and the Twelve Disciples and Paul began to spread it throguhout the Roman Empire (and beyond). Churches began to form and after many names changes, the new religion was called Christanity.

Somewhere along the line of history, it was adopted as the official religion, by a Roman Empire (Or was it Byzantine? Sorry I am not sure, but it was adopted as a state religion of a big empire). After the adoption, Christanity began to more and more resemblance Catholicism. It seems that Martin Luther formed the Protestans because he don’t agree with the ‘addition’ added to Christanity after its adoption as a formal state religion…

Or that what I have read from books and heard from others.

It was the Roman empire. Thanks for the clarification. I believe this view of yours is quite idiosyncratic, but I could be wrong.

I believe everyone will have a chance to know God exists before they make their final call.
I don’t believe God’s going to allow /any/one to end up in oblivion simply because they don’t believe in him or Christ. I’m sure they’ll get the chance to make an informed decision =)

Jesus said that no man could come to the father, save through him - but he didn’t say when or how - the idea that he meant, ‘believe in me or you’re stuffed’ is pretty much just an assumption made by some people. He may have been referring to the simple fact that without his sacrifice no man could get to the father.

Either way, I personally don’t believe all non christians are going to hell/oblivion - that seems a far more man-made notion. Throughout the NT, Jesus is consistantly inclusive, not exclusive. Half the trouble he got into was because he wanted to include the gentiles, tax collectors, whores, adulterers - all the people everyone else thought weren’t ‘good enough’ for God.

You haven’t been as good as you think you have, though :wink: I’m a protestant (Methodist - I tend to think of denominations as ‘flavours’), but the idea of purgatory makes total sense to me. See you there! :wink:

I think that LostCause’s opinions on the Catholic church would be held by a large number of the more fundamentalist (for lack of a better word) branches of Christianity. At the same time, large numbers of other Christians (including myself) would disagree…

Grim

In short, all your actions will be accounted for. Those that are incorrect, you will be punished for. Afterwards, you’ll receive your reward for the good you did in this life.

Zev Steinhardt

If I am just exactly right about the nature of the Creator…hmmm.

Well, two options, if you happen to have enough spiritual growth to get over the need for material support for thought, you’ll go on as a spiritual reflection of God and learn more. If you haven’t figured out that much, you will be provided with more material life in order to learn what you need to. (Not quite reincarnation, but could be used as such.)

But I don’t think you’re asking about death, but rather Judgement. How does God Judge? (God in this case being the Christian God as seen by Medea’s Child) I, personally work off of an action based value ethic. It is your sole responsibility to do good, as well as you see fit, in every moment.

This obviously differs for different people, which is why I try to keep my mind off of others and try to find what is good for me. I have been given just enough brain power to figure out what I should be doing with the gifts I have. But again, you aren’t asking about me, but about my God.

My God, however, judges on what H/She Created. I believe in a omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent Creator. All that the Lord Created has been judged Good. Inclusion into heaven is constant in the here and now, the only option of existance is one beloved by God. One’s beliefs and actions cannot seperate one from an omnipotent Creator. God Created everything to be Good. Mere people do not have the ability to fight that. (They can try real hard to ignore it, which can be a painful experiance, but with my above views on death, you learn at your own pace.)

So, you are good, God knows this and is pleased.

Well, I don’t believe in any gods either, but if you do what I’m going to do (marry a Christian) you will still be saved if Christianity is the right religion to follow.

from the kjv bible

Corinthians 7
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Awesome! I get to be a heathen and get through the pearly gates. Hallelujah!

I’m none of the three cited in the OP / thread title, but in what appears to be a spirit of ecumenicalism…

What if you did not believe in the theory of Xmahuigitehl, a notion you’d encountered but never made any sense of, pertaining to free will versus determinism, and yet it turns out that the theory is an accurate description of how you actually experience life? Well, then, that means that you failed to pick up on some things in the theory that would have caused it to ring true for you, but you have nevertheless experienced life, and, therefore, the true relationship of free will to determinism has had a direct impact on you whether you understood it or not.

If you had a concept-level understanding of the whole “free will versus determinism” thing, would it matter if you failed to recognize that the theory of Xmahuigitehl was saying the same thing? No.

If you had a gut-level understanding of the “free will vs. determinism” thing – perhaps never using the terms “free will” or “determinism”, let alone “Xmahuigitehl” - ?? Well, it might have aided you at times in your life to have put your understanding into words (yours or the words used by the Theory), especially if you ever wanted to talk to other people about it. But as long as you “got it” on some level, your failure to comprehend it as described by other people using the Theory’s terms probably didn’t do you any significant damage.

And if you didn’t get it at all? Well, that could have caused you to spend a miserable life (perhaps one cut short by your mistakes) because of what you didn’t understand about the nature of life.

And does Xmahuigitehl get pissed off at you for not believing?

No more than gravity gets annoyed with you when you fail to grasp why you should not jump out the 43rd floor window to arrive at the sidewalk below. It’s not a personally vindictive punishment.

(Xmahuigitehl is a “placeholder”, an artifact of this post only, of course)

That’s a very interesting question!
Being an Atheist myself, I have pondered what my fate would be if I ended up at the pearly gates. I think I might end up in purgatory for a few millennia till I had a change of heart.
According to JOHN:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I don’t think there is room up there for guys like us!!