Opus1: The OP began by saying:
I see nothing wrong with this – it’s probably true. I know it’s true for me. He did not say that this was the view of all, or even most, creationists. He just went on from there to ask a question of those who DID believe this way.
That depends. Are they Greek letters?
BTW…
[hijack]
Coosa, are you from Gadsden, AL?[/hijack]
-Ben
I don’t buy it. I’m sure that some have spouted this belief, but to me it doesn’t make sense (as much of their manufactured and interpreted (IMO) doctrine doesn’t make sense). We are instructed to love and seek God with our heart, our soul, and our mind. If you believe this to be instruction from God, why would God deliberately negate and frustrate His own command?
While much of Christianity relies on faith as the “belief in things not seen”, I personally find these “tests” to a bit contrived, somewhat irrelevant, and downright suspicious.
I would equate the “passing of the test” as a work of the flesh, not an act of faith. What we’ve tried to do is to create a physical manifestation or a “merit badge”, a sign of perfection that we can hold up to others saying “See what I did?” Very dangerous indeed. One of the assumptions that Christians make is that the Lord knows their thoughts and motives accurately and completely; since the outcome of any “test” would be known before the completion of the task, it could never serve the spirit, but only serve the flesh.
That’s just my opinion, anyway. That and $.35 would buy a cup of bad coffee in any number of vending machines throughout the country.
Btw, I like the Dawkins quote. Very thought-provoking.
IMHO, asking creationists for their reasons or thinking is a bit like asking cats to do origami. It’s not something they’re known for.
And please, someone, tell me that the post from Brian Bunnyhurt was a hoax or troll?
coosa wrote, in the OP:
This school of thought is sometimes referred to as Last Thursdayism.
And I have indeed read eminent scholars of evolution, claiming negroes and aborigines are inferior to caucasions. They are not in the majority, but they are definitely there.
Now wouldn’t that be a straw man image?
Coosa has 580 posts, and has been around since July 1999. Both of you know damn well that there is not one fundamental Christian in the active membership. I’ve been around since November, and knowing how often fundies are ridiculed, you would think they would respond at least once in their own defense. This question is purely rhetorical,not a debate at all. Gratuitous fundy bashing.
And you know “damn well” that Wildest Bill is still active, for one. I think an apology is in order.
-Ben
Gator posts on occasion as well. Big Red hasn’t been around in a while, sadly. And there are often evangelicals who read this board. Yourself, for example. FatherJohn in this very thread.
The writers of The Bell Curve are hardly “eminent.” But granted, they claim to be.
How so? If such people truly exist and promulgate their beliefs, then of course there wouldn’t be a strawman. A very small group, perhaps, but if it’s extant, it cannot be presented as a strawman.
Navigator is quite busy between work, family and the board he’s one of a handful of moderators on, but drops by regularly.
Lauralee, who posted here regularly, had to take time off for medical reasons, but has resumed posting on the Parlor, and may drop over here sometime soon.
A couple of other regulars over there post here occasionally.
Beyond Pizzaholics, there was one regular poster here, a woman with a screenname beginning with K, who considered herself a fundamentalist, and made some very intelligent points now and then.
If you’ve read Cecil’s books and columns, you’re aware that this is a perfectly appropriate topic for discussion. Cecil often discusses beliefs he doesn’t share. He’s discussed Scientologist’s beliefs even though he’s not a Scientologist. David did a great column that discussed Holocaust denier’s beliefs. I’ll take it as a given that David’s not a Holocaust denier. I don’t think asking what Bible literalists believe requires a Bible Literalist to respond.
Earlier in the thread I pointed out at least one nationally syndicated radio show that espouses those beliefs. Apparently someone out there believes this stuff. What’s the harm in trying to understand what they believe?
If this sort of thing aggrivates you, I strongly recommend you don’t read Martin Gardner’s masterpiece Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science.
By the way…I thought you’d left us forever. Did I miss your return?
Fenris
I am not evangelical. I know that there are Christians around, but my best guess is that there is no one here who believes that the universe and the world were created in 144 hours 6000 years ago. If Coosa is fighting ignorance, then he is in the wrong place. I will concede this point however if one person comes forward and tell us that he believes in a creation 6000 years ago.
I have in mind none other than the father of evolution, Charles Darwin
Well, it depend on how you define “dinosaur”. See- it is not really a scientific label. What we generally call dinosaurs are actually two related groups, the “Othnithiscians” and the “Saurischians”. Some scientists lump them together in a "super-class’ Dinosauria. However, some use that word to just mean “an extinct reptile of the Mesozoic era”- which would include Pleisiosaurs, Mosasaurs & Ichyasaurs- all of which I have likely misspelled.
I do somewhat agree with greinspace, tho. Exactly who are you guys going to debate “creationism” with, if there are no creationists here? Oh, sure- cecil will answer a QUESTION about something he disagrees with- but this is “great debates”- and there ain’t one.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fenris *
**
Yes you are right Fenris. Uncalled for. I didn’t have to swear and use the “d” word. I still haven’t gotten over my baptism by fire in my first debate thread. I was bracing my self for David B.'s response if he wasn’t going to ignore me.
Coosa was clearly polling believers in 6000 year old creation. He says “I have a question for those who believe this.” I am quite familiar with some people who actually claim they do, because I know that for them to suggest otherwise would be akin to sharing Peter’s pain upon the third crowing of the cock. I haven’t read any one here like that yet. Maybe Wildest Bill, but I have a difficult time understanding him.
In the interest of fighting ignorance,you are wasting so much effort evangelizing for evolution. Apparently we are placing too much stress on a server in a Chicago attic and that it could blow up. I thought this issue was dead 35 years ago, but in the straight dope I find that almost 5% of all topics(threads) deal with or touch on creation, and the success rate for enlightening a creationist I’ll bet is close to zero. As far as I can tell, the only topics which hold more interest are christianity and homosexuality, which run dead even at 6%.( these numbers were arrived at by searching for creation,christian,gay respectively.I would also suggest that unless you have a close relative who is a real 6000 year old creationist, you will never be able to really understand it. I will never be able to understand how anyone could worship trees, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
One or two days. I can’t stay away.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by grienspace *
**
You’re not alone 
Anyway, I’m fascinated with what bible literalists believe. In an earlier (recent) thread (“Where did all the water go”,) a (possible) Bible Literalist answered and was argued with, but not really mocked.
**
I’m not losing sleep over it, but I am interested in it.
Again: there are national shows espousing those beliefs. Kansas(?) recently banned the teaching of evolution OR required equal time for creation theory. The debate is far from over.
And even if it was, I love reading about weird (from my POV) beliefs. Hollow Earth proponents, Chariot Of The Gods types, Roswell belivers I want to know what they believe. I’m interested in it. All kidding aside, see if you can dig up a copy of Martin Gardner’s Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science. If he can’t ‘make’ you see the fascination in learning about weird beliefs, then nothing can. It’s a true classic.
I know that feeling!
Fenris
grienspace said:
Not if you addressed your question specifically about those who believe this way, as coosa did here.
You’ve already been corrected by several people on this one, so I don’t need to add anything here.
I don’t read minds, so I obviously cannot say with 100% certainty why coosa posted it. But I did not see it as “gratuitous fundy bashing.” I saw it as somebody trying to get a handle on why some people believe the things they believe.
Whether you concede the point or not is irrelevant. Since the SDMB started, there have been a number of such people around. There may not be one active at this very moment, but then, you never know who is lurking.
Oh, well, if you haven’t, then obviously they don’t exist. :rolleyes:
It would be, if the creationists would start accepting science. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened.
Last I checked, tree-worshippers weren’t trying to get their religious beliefs taught in science class…
Sorry to take so long in responding, but I’ve been dealing with a nasty stomach virus for the last couple of days. 
I’m not sure that I understand the objections to my OP. First of all, I see know reason why I should not assume that that there are ‘test of faith’ believers here - they have certainly been here in the past. There are also people here who once WERE fundamentalists of some type who have since changed their minds, people who have posted that they have family members that are fundamentalists, and people who have investigated differing fundamentalists beliefs, any or all of whom may have been able to address my questions in a knowledgeable manner.
Secondly, am I not allowed to question the beliefs of a particular groups just because they are a minority outside of my area? David Koresh and his followers were definitely a minority - if he had lived in my neighborhood, would I have been wrong to try to learn more about his beliefs? Literal creationists and various types of fundamentalists are definitely a force to reckon with in Alabama - I just heard a blurb on the radio a couple of days ago that some group has again approached the Alabama State Board of Education demanding that creationism be taught in the schools as an alternate theory to evolution. They almost succeeded a few years ago, and might yet do so. Forgive me for being concerned with the quality of education in this state!
Thirdly, I don’t intend to ‘bash’ any creationists in this thread, and I would prefer it if no one else would either. I’m curious about this aspect of the ‘test of faith’ belief, and I don’t see how I can learn without listening to its adherents. I’ve not found ‘bashing’ effective in altering peoples’ viewpoints, anyway. What I have found is that, often, the ordinary individual has never really pondered alternative theories. Life is complicated enough - they just accept what their parents and pastors teach them without question, and concentrate instead on working, raising children, etc. If I listen respectfully to their opinions I feel they are more likely to listen respectfully to mine. Rather than tell them they are wrong, I try to offer alternate theories for them to consider - if I can get them to ‘think outside of the box’ for a little while, I feel like I have accomplished something. They may not change their beliefs because of anything I say or do, but at least they’ve been encouraged to examine them a little. Whacking someone on the head with ‘the truth’ is NOT the best way of inserting it into their brains.
So, is there anyone here who is familiar enough with the ‘test of faith’ believers to offer any opinions on my OP? Ducky is of the opinion that they ignore the whole issue - anyone else have any input?
[hijack response]Ben: Not Gadsden, but not too darn far away - I attended GSCC for a while. You wouldn’t be referring to the numerous multi-million dollar, politically outspoken churches in, for example, Rainbow City, would you?[/hijack response]
BTW, not that it really matters, but I’m female. Just thought I’d mention it, as I feel somewhat deceitful if I don’t clarify that point. What can I say? I have weird ethics.
coosa- IMHO- there WAS nothing wrong with you TRYING to start a debate on this subject- other than the fact it has been covered dozens of times before. Unfortuately- after a while it should have been obvious that there was no-one debating the “PRO” side of the debate. And having folks put up straw dummies, act like ventriloquists, and have the dummies say what THEY thought someone in favor of “fundamental creationism” MIGHT say- is specious.
This IS “great DEBATES”- in order to have one- you need someone to actually argue the other side.
:rolleyes:
This is also where discussions of belief systems go.
Without addressing what anyone else might have done, I specifically listed what a specific fundemental creationist said he believed. One who is on national radio and cited a source. I didn’t list what I thought a literalist creationist would say, I specifically tried to reproduce what was said.
You said much the same thing in the “Where does the Water Go” thread. If this sort of topic bothers you, please let me invite you not to read it.
Fenris
coosa,
FWIW, one of the explanations that I’ve heard many times is that Satan planted the false evidence, not God. God allowed this as a test of faith, similar to the story of Job. If you read the Bible, God was fairly big on tests of faith, so it’s not really surprising that Bible literalists don’t have a problem with this concept.
The reason that that these people know that the world was created ~6000 years ago rather than yesterday is very simply that it says so right there in the Bible. To believe otherwise would be to fail the faith test.
Although I am most definitely not a Creationist, I do live, work and deal with many of them on a daily basis. Yes, I’m even related to some. And I have discussed these sorts of ideas with many of them on many occasions. Interestingly, I’ve found that quite often the most literalist fundamentalist types are much easier to talk to about these crazy ideas - their belief is so rock solid that they can enjoy the discussion without personal distress (they just laugh at all the stuff ‘you people’ get wrong).