Question for managers: Is it worth pressing my manager for help on this?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have a problem at work and I’m trying to decide if I should just try to turn off my brain and shut up and smile like a zombie worker, or if I can reasonably ask and expect my manager to help solve the problem. Would like the opinions of managers here.

tl;DR: Should I explain that a problem is demotivating me and I’d like it to be addressed, or would that just be whining?

Here are the details:

The team I work on is dedicated to the creation and maintenance of a set of documentation which has an external audience. The company culture is one with very long-term seniority people although in the last few years they’ve been hiring new people like me. What we new people are finding is that they pay lip service to bringing in new people for fresh perspectives but in reality the “old-timers” very jealously defend everything they do and are very unwelcoming to new ideas. That general attitude comes into play in my problem because some of those old-timers are on our documentation review board. They want things to be worded a very precise way based on their long experience in the industry. They are eager to argue over minutia - a sentence or a phrase will send them debating for over an hour. They and our upper management team are extremely risk-averse. So our team input (list of clarifications and changes we’ve been asked to make to the documents) is longer than our output (changes that we actually publish). The quality of the documents and our work is absolutely shitty, which is flooding our workflow - firehose in, drip hose out.

All of these issues are known and discussed on a frequent basis but we can’t seem to figure out the solution. In my opinion, the solution is to address the risk aversion. That’s extremely hard and above my paygrade. But there’s another thing - -and this is really what’s demotivating me to the point that I want to talk to my manager about it.

On several occasions I’ve been asked to draft some document changes and been slaughtered by the review board. In some cases my work is wrong - I don’t have industry background, just a logical mind and pretty good communication skills. But I admit, in some cases I don’t understand the ramifications of what I’m writing, so their criticisms in those cases are welcome. I can learn from that. On the other hand, a lot of their criticism is not warranted. If I used a different set of words to express the idea than the reviewer would have, they tell me I’m wrong. Just this week, I was asked to add one sentence to a document. It wasn’t wrong, it was exactly what was asked for. But one reviewer acted like I’d handed her the Da Vinci Code and couldn’t figure it out.

The actual information is too industry specific for you guys to understand, but it was along these lines. If what I wrote was:

“The clouds in the sky move around from high-altitude winds, so the amount of sunshine a person on the ground will see may change from day to day.”

Her “feedback” was:

*"Are you saying that:

  1. winds at high altitude blow the clouds around,
    and
  2. this results in different levels of sunshine being visible at any point in time?
    If so, you may want to spell this out"*

This sent me right over the edge when I read it. Seems like she’s playing games here, or just trying to have a say and for whatever perverse reason she feels that saying “this is fine” isn’t good enough. This reviewer is one where you HAVE to do the changes she tells you to because she has clout with upper management. So what I did was replace what I wrote with what she wrote almost verbatim like this:

“Winds at high altitude blow the clouds around, and this results in different levels of sunshine being visible at any point in time.”

Anyway, I have talked to my manager about this kind of thing before. Not much happened from those discussions other than platitudes about how we all have different informed opinions and need to learn to work together. Is it worth talking to her again and explaining that this kind of shit makes me feel like I can’t do anything right and demotivates me to even try to write quality documentation? Because after criticisms like this I kind of throw my hands up and figure I just can’t write shit to save my life. If everything - down to the simplest sentence - is wrong, I can’t see any way I can learn to do better.

Or should I just shut up, slap some words on the page for every future assignment, knowing that it will be ripped apart regardless of what it says and not worry about trying to do a good job? That’s so cynical, I hate to be that way. But… really, what chance do I have here?

2

Hard to say from your example exactly how important those changes were to the project, but ultimately, it is up to you to provide the documentation in a way that is acceptable to your bosses.

The way they give you feedback can be important. I like to concentrate on the idea of positive and corrective feedback, you always tell the employee what they did well, then you tell them what they can do better. Unfortunately, many managers are not very good at this, or don’t have enough empathy to realize the morale issues they create when they just criticize.

I would kinda put her on the spot. Write your next report, to the best of your ability, and when it comes to a sentence like that, ask her. Something like “Should I say that ‘the Clouds move because of winds, or that the winds move the clouds,’ here?” Get her to give you preemptive feedback. This not only gets you the knowledge you need to do your job, but might also train her a bit on how to train and manage her employees.

She may just be a mean person, and blow you off and continue to criticize your reports, in which case, well, “water on a duck’s back”, is the only advice I have for managers like that. It’s hard to deal with, but unless you are willing and able to look for another job (which will likely have similar issues), it’s your best bet.

3

What I saw in your post that was most significant was that it’s a company culture that is big on seniority and unwelcoming to new perspectives. Not a good environment and not one your manager is likely to help with unless the manager is fighting to change the company culture, which is why new people were brought in. But if the manager is part of that culture then it’s kinda pointless.

4

I should clarify, this reviewer is not my manager. Every change we make to the documents has to be run through a review board - a group of peers - before it can be published. This review board has been slaughtering me every time I bring something before them. And this one sentence thing was just a good illustration of how much gamesmanship there is.

While my manager is on the review board, she’s more like a matrix manager… just supervises and does my performance reviews. She gives me good feedback on my work, but this review board is a different animal completely.

Adaher, you’re right. But can the nitpicking be separated from the “old guard” mentality? I mean it seems to me almost like bullying, although I might be oversensitive from my bad experiences to date. But is it unreasonable to ask and expect people on the review board to try to be more constructive or at least less harsh? Was my one sentence really that much different from what she suggested I write?

5

There is not really enough detail to make a management call from here, I’d need to know the makeup of the external audience and more about the risks to which they seem so averse. I will say, however, that I like the edited example sentence much better than the original. It’s more clear and more accurate. For example, cloud cover affects visible sunlight not just day to day, but moment to moment. I understand it’s an example, but that distinction certainly could be important. Collaboration usually makes for a better document.

I get the impression that the issue is not so much the changes, but how they are presented. That part may be worth a discussion with your manager. Perhaps they don’t realize that it comes off as patronizing. Perhaps they don’t care. At least maybe after a conversation you would you would know the ‘rules’.

6

I think you need more layers of review before going before the board. Or more experienced people in the drafting process.
If you are submitting changes to the review board that are flat out wrong then you are never going to get their buy in to your work in general.
I understand how how you personally wouldn’t be able to know that but you need someone in the process who can or the team will never get traction.
I like to try to turn the most opposed but still rational person to my side by having them be part of building what’s presented (it mutes a voice at least and at best turns them into an ally) but that’s not always doable.

7

What you say about collaboration is correct. What keeps running through my mind is this: just because my version was perhaps not ideal, does that make it wrong? There are no clearly defined metrics for right or wrong on this stuff, it’s all subjective and the people with the loudest voices win. That’s what’s really chafing my ass. I’m always happy to learn from people. But it rubs me the wrong way when that is not reciprocated - and I get the feeling that I really have nothing to contribute here.

This bolded part is one thing that I’ve been thinking. I was hired with no background in this very niche industry so it may not be realistic to expect me to do well writing drafts of documents that require that background. But I can’t really see myself participating in the review board for the very same reason: I don’t know enough to spot incorrect information.

Maybe I should ask to be moved to a different team.

8

I manage a group of engineers that largely lean toward the old-timer/very senior side. The problem you describe is not limited to your company but can be corrected by a manager who is inclined to steer the senior staff away from unnecessary arguments.

It’s intimidating for a younger or less experienced manager to confront the old guard and it took me a while to be sufficiently comfortable in my position to address problems such as the one you describe. If your manager has been in the position for a while, however, you can assume that they are part of the old guard and will be unlikely to take your side.

It sounds like you are sending documents out for desk reviews and people are alone when responding with comments. Perhaps you can try having review meetings where meaningless comments are made real-time in front of others. A well placed “does this add any value” comment may help unless the team consists of a mix of equally anal seniors and unwilling to rock the boat juniors.

Your manager sets the tone. If she is comfortable with the status quo then the situation will not change unless you or others with the same problem drive the change.

9

Actually don’t complain… You are in a VERY LUCKY [learning] situation! Take advantage of this opportunity.

Communication is difficult. Communicating with all different sorts of people is even more difficult. So you are learning how to write so every single person will clearly understand what you have written.

This is also called “dealing with the public”. I’ve done this most of my life and have learned tons from it. One thing I learned is that 5% of people are jerks and 1% are total assholes - will wreck your day.

Also there are those who build and fix things and those who go around trying to destroy things. Learn to ignore the 1% and those trying to destroy everything and you will have some pretty good “people skills” which will be a big plus in your career.

10

For this one sentence change we did it by email. But most of the time they are done in a meeting. That does not stop them. I had a horrible one early this year that was so bad that two of them approached me the following day to apologize and offer the weak excuse “sometimes we misbehave”. The problem I see in the meetings is that everyone feels their opinions add value. They will argue until the cows come home to defend their opinions. I did ask my manager after that bad experience if she could more actively moderate the meetings and she agreed. But she tunes out so that went by the wayside. I get the feeling that she is bowled over by the old guard also. She’s an experienced manager but not part of the old guard and it looks to me like the management team kind of bullies her, too.

11

The problem is that I’m NOT learning how to write better. All I can figure out from the past three years of being hammered in the review meetings is that I never write the way they would have written it. I’m not sure if it’s possible to ever write satisfactorily for these people because… well, see my post just before this one. They all have different opinions about whether anything is understandable or not and will argue all day long about it. With each other! I can’t ignore the 1% on this review board because they are the ones that management listens to. If I try to move forward with a document ignoring their feedback, it WILL land right back in my lap.

12

If I were your manager, I would counsel you that to me it seems that you are taking the editing process way way too personally. And that you are injecting unneeded anxiety by wrapping it up into “old guard” vs newbies, and all that. You are getting in your own way. Write to the best of your ability, and quickly incorporate the reviewers edits. Done.

13

You’re not going to win this and your manager doesn’t want to make it her problem.

You care way too much. Care less.

14

Okay, and this was another option that I’ve been considering. I have always had a high work ethic and strive for the best quality in my work output, so I struggle with the “care less” idea. But I can work on it.

It just seems so… wrong. But since I don’t want to find another job, it may be the best option. Need to find a way to remind myself not to get upset after these reviews… a ball gag, perhaps?

15

I’m going to comment more from the reviewers’ POV.

I have spent over 20 years reviewing other employees’ writing. This is not because they write badly, but because I have a bit more education and writing experience. (I know this sounds egotistical, but it’s true.)

I suggest that the OP think of a comparable situation that occurs in CGI work. One person creates a scary creature. He/she is satisfied with it. Then other peers take a look at it and make suggestions. (“More hair…sharper teeth…less snot.”) Some of those changes are incorporated. Finally, the director comes along and makes further suggestions based on his/her vision. There might even be some heated discussion about certain aspects of the creature. (“But that’s unrealistic!”) When all is said and done, there’s an end-result that is acceptable to everyone. The process doesn’t work if everyone takes the comments and suggestions personally.

When I make corrections to someone else’s work, or suggest significant changes, I’m thinking it’s a positive process that will produce a better work product.

16

Older white males? And you’re a young female?

17

If they just want to nitpick everything, just care less, like Quicksilver says.

Continue to do the best you can not to be wrong outright. But don’t waste time and effort trying to square the circle. If they want to rewrite it, let them. Don’t defend anything - that wastes effort. Can you use their feedback to improve, or are they just going to pick everything apart? If the former, good. If the latter, just say “OK, I’ll make the change”.

Regards,
Shodan

18

My work situation isn’t as intense as yours in terms of formal reviews but I learned a long time ago, you’re really just preparing something for people to look at and pull apart. In school and early in work, I would write the final version of something and be satisfied with it and feel it was “right”. I would have resented someone telling me how it should be changed. Now I know that I do my best draft, not my best final product, giving a lot of thought to organization and presenting things clearly, and then let go and let it be marked up and changed.

I don’t think they’re attacking you or your work as much as they are posturing and making themselves feel like their opinion is important and adding value. And to some extent it is; they do have a better sense of how things are read by the public, etc.

19

That’s an interesting analogy that I can relate to, thanks. Of course the goal is to end up with a better work product. What grinds my gears is that our documentation quality is currently abysmal - in everybody’s opinions - internal people, external customers. It’s generally agreed to be horrible and part of the team’s purpose is to FIX it. But this goes back to the risk aversion and the old guard’s resistance to new ideas. Some readers have suggested we migrate it all to a wiki or documentation management system to make it easier to manage and higher quality. But that’s like criticizing the pope around here. They strongly prefer to continue maintaining a collection of Word documents (with manual file version management!) converted to PDF’s for publication.

So it’s hard to take them seriously when they say they just want good quality. It has to be quality by their own definition and nobody else’s.

Nope, nothing so stereotyped. The “old guard” is a mixture of men and women who have worked in this industry for several decades. I’m female but not at all young. It’s more of an industry snobbishness than a gender or age divide.

20

I don’t think I can use their feedback to improve. I am always looking for a way to learn to do the job right the first time, so this is what I’ve been trying to do here. Using their feedback to learn how to write it correctly the first time. If I couldn’t write this one sentence correctly after being asked “make it say that the sun shines differently on different days because of the clouds”, then I don’t see how I can learn to do it right the first time.

Which leads me to conclude that either I’m a complete waste of air, or they just like to pick everything apart so they can say they contributed. From now on I’ll be just “okay, thanks, I’ll make it so”.