The idea that most of the things I shouldn’t do to other people are things that I would really be unhappy about having done to me. People are people, and as such deserve common decency.
The knowledge that treating others as I wish to be treated makes for a positive impact upon society.
Yup. Doing ‘right’ things tends to make my life much easier and happier.
My life is made meaningful through the act of enjoying it. Career, money, and romance certainly factor into that. My self-worth comes from knowing that I have improved the lives of others by living as I do, and in being happy in general with the things I do.
Meaning to whom? Matter to whom? It certainly has meaning to me and to the people who care about me, and it does matter to me and to those who care about me. The lives of those I care about, and of those who have affected me and my ability to live longer and better certainly matter to me.
To the universe as a whole? There probably is no meaning and no matter, nor will there be any long rememberance after I am gone. I’m OK with that though. I’m having a wonderful, enjoyable time on this amusement park ride we call life, and when it is my turn to get off, that’s the end. It’s not important for me to have meaning to the universe or to matter to the universe. What’s important is that for whatever time I’m here, I enjoyed it, and I helped some others enjoy it more too.
Interestingly I recently learned that 58% of Americans share this opinion with you (OP’er) - that is, that it is necessary to believe in god to have morals.
link here
My take on the whole question is this: why does it matter? why does it matter if it matters? We can’t do much to change our existance other than take our own lives (an option that appears to be, sadly, irreversible) so it seems reasonable to keep on existing. The OP suggests that atheists should be a cold, calculating bunch, but we have every bit of information you have (as well as of those who came up with the teachings of whatever religion you adhere to) in terms of how one should live in this world and what the consequences of living in certain ways are. What’s more, the OP also seems to suggest that atheists have accepted their lot in life as robots, unfeeling and completely dead to the world. While it may be a little more cynical to view certain feelings and emotions as teh result of neurons firing in your brain and not god telling you that what you do is right, it does not mean that we take the position they are not there and that we do not take actions that lead to the same sort of satisfactions that you religious folk enjoy (i.e. generosity, compassion, etc.). I choose to behave in a way that is generally (though not entirely) acceptable to our society as a whole because I trust the logic behind Kant’s categorical imperative and I want to be able to trust other people so I give them reason to trust me (it makes living in a society a whole lot easier that way). I for one don’t understand how someone can take certain improbable religious beliefs to be fact for the sole reason that it was written in a book a long time ago.
I guess I should have qualified my above post by saying I really don’t think of myself as an “atheist”, in the sense I insist there is no God. I really, truly, claim no special knowlege of a Higher Power of the worshipful variety. In fact, I have no knowlege of such a Being at all. I find the world religions I have studied so riddled with inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and contradictions, both within themselves, and with others, that I pay them no credence. Whatever God is all about, if anything, it seems likely humanity hasn’t discovered it yet, and has simply created sundry traditions slowly, out of whole cloth, to explain what we cannot understand; to justify our own motivations, both generous and cruel; and to justify and validate our existence.
I’ll take this in two parts since it really is two questions.
A.) Why am I moral? Mostly compassion I guess. I feel for my fellow human beings and try to avoid doing them harm. I probably care more for my close friends and family than for distant strangers but AFAICT this is true of theists too.
B.)From where do I draw my morals? Well I could get all pseudo-intellectual and bring up Kant and Aristotle and all that, but really its a matter of simple common sense and the golden rule. I know what causes me pain and pleasure so I try to avoid causing pains in other people and to help them out from time to time. I’m not always successful at the former and I don’t do the latter often enough, but I try.
Mostly just being, I guess. Life is fascinating. What more does anyone need. I really don’t understand the question.
My life matters to me. So do other people’s. What more does anyone need? Meaning for what? Again I don’t understand the question.
Seriously I’m not trying to be snarky. I just don’t get the point of questions about “purpose” or “meaning,” at least not in any grand sense. What does “meaning” do? What sort of 'meaning" could your acts have, even in a theistic sense. You’re alive. You do things. Why do you need anything more?
I need no religion to tell me right from wrong. I have a very strong sense of ethics which simply boils down to, “Never intentionally hurt another person.” That precludes just about every “sin” on the list, along with a few more that Christians and the law seems to ignore.
No. But it matters to me.
What does the suffering of one human being mean, in the grand scheme of things. Through the perspective of human history, and the vast number of people who are, and those who are yet to be, what does one human life matter? Not much. But it means something to me. I would hate myself if I took a life, or made someone miserable on purpose. Not because I think about my actions in a sense of my place in the universe, but because my actions mean something to me. And that’s all that matters-- if I can look at myself in the mirror.
I search for no “meaning.” The whole concept is ludicrius. Why must there be a “meaning” to anything? This strikes me as the grossest kind of egotism-- that man is so “special” that he must have some kind of purpose or significance in the universe.
Simply put, there is no “meaning” to life whatsoever. My life has no more “meaning” than my new puppy’s. I am simply the product of millions of years of human reproduction.
Am I happy? Yes. Am I fulfilled? Yes. Will I die feeling that I lived a wonderful life? Yes. Will I die thinking that I didn’t fulfill some cosmic job or purpose? No.
I am. That’s it.
From the fact that I am a decent, ethical human being who does her best to help out other humans and little fuzzy animals. I am a historian who works dilligently to preserve the records and artifacts of our history. I tip well.
No. Other than personal egotism, no one really matters.
What makes your life truly meaningful? Sex… fun and friends
What is the meaning of your existence? I just live… the other option isn’t nice Do you think your existence has some special meaning ? Your just one little thing in a 6 billion crowd.
I appreciate your concern, Polycarp, but to be perfectly honest, such questions seem entirely understandable, and I doubt many of us without faith are at all offended. Personally, I try to put myself in the position of a person, blind from birth, being asked by someone with sight, “How can you bear it?” Well, the simple answer is, I don’t know any better. Quite honestly, if “vision” could somehow be bestowed upon me, I’d be all for it, but I don’t have cause to despair without it, because I simply don’t know enough to feel “without” anything like “sight”. I’m not offended by the OP. He or she is trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, as far as I can tell. I’m almost certain our answers will be of no assistance in conveying true understanding, but there’s no harm in sharing.
My morals are dictated by my personal conscience, compassion and empathy for others. It makes me feel bad if I hurt people and good if I help them. I have no fear of ultimate punishment (although I do have a rational fear of human punishment) my actions simply inspire organic feelings inside me that have no reference to external consequences. In some sense, I suppose my “morality” is selfish. I choose to do that which makes me feel good about myself and (mostly) avoid doing things which make me feel bad.
My family, mostly. I try to be a good father and husband. I derive a lot of other simple pleasures as well, though- reading, music and posting on this message board, for instance.
I have no idea if my life has any greater meaning. I don’t know if that question can even be answered. I’ve decided not to worry about it anymore. I have no emotional requirement for my life to have any more meaning than what I give it myself.
Parents, community, and the Golden Rule (which I find quite libertarian, really).
See above.
Probably not, if you define “the grand scheme of things” as “things other than myself.” If, however, you include my rather acute sense of being able to respect myself due to the principles enumerated above, then yes, it REALLY matters.
My wife, my daughter, my profession, my friends, household improvement projects, scuba diving, fine single malts, cooking, you name it.
Now, what makes your life so pathetic that you have to invent a higher purpose in order to live with yourself? (Not trying to be snarky, just flipping the question around.)
Who needs meaning when you’ve got such awesome text?
Assuming that the universe will either collapse on itself or expand into infinite nothingness – which are really the only two probably outcomes, with the heavy money on infinite nothingness – none of this matters. In the grand scheme of things.
Fortunately, I am not the grand scheme of things, which enables me to be entirely happy with what I have.
Let’s see: should I post drunk? Yes, I should, because I have worked out a system wherein I can error-check my thoughts even if they are disjointed. Just like proteins, I can have an 80% error rate and still be intelligible because I have an error-correcting system in place.
My answer is this: I care about other people. I don’t think any moral system, even a deistic one, can truly be moral without empathy: without the inference that other people are like me: they feel too. And I cannot wish things for myself without wishing that they, too, not be thwarted and abused, just like I would hate if such things were done to me.
The reality is: meaning, even for theists, comes from subjective evaluation. If you feel your life is meaningful because you serve your God, then this is still a subjective meaning for you life: it is YOU who finds deep meaning in it. Let’s say that God does in fact exist, and he does have a plan for my life. Does that mean that my life is meaningful? Not necessarily. I might, in fact, recognize that God really does have a plan for me, and yet not be very excited about it, just as I might not be all that excited about my parents expectations for me. It is in my subjective affirmation of meaning that I find purpose. If I accept and find MEANING in doing what God wants for me, it is THEN that I find purpose in my life.
Now, of course, I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God. So what is my life like? Well, I still find meaning in lots of things. I affirm all sorts of values that I am willing to live or die in defense of. I have higher ideals and groups for which I care deeply about. My life is meaningful, truly meaningful. Just because I FEEL it is. Just like you might FEEL your life is meaningful in the sight of God’s plan.
And perhaps I am mistaken: perhaps a God does exist. Well, I would hope that he would appreciate me and who I am, and appreciate that I am doing the best I can to be as honest as I can be and as caring as I can be to find meaning in the life he’s given me. I may not be convinced that there is a God, but I am trying to find meaning and love in what I have, no matter where it comes from or what others might think it for.
I think I’ve already answered this question. Yes, my life matters. So does yours. On this rock or any rock. Because, and simply because, it matters to me. It matters to someone. I may not be a God, but I AM real. I care. I’m here. You matter to me. That may not be EVERYTHING as you see it, may not be the ultimate source of all meaning. But doesn’t it MATTER that I am here, and I care about you and your existence? Isn’t that something? Isn’t that WORTH something?
You see? I told you/. I may be horribly drunk. But I CARE. I have something I feel is important to say, and I desperately want to express it to you, even though I know you may not be like me, may believe things that I don’t. I care. And that caring is something that I think will make all the difference to you in this discussion.
I guess what I want to say is this: tlk1, I DO care. I might have all sorts of defense mechanisms set up for rejecting your point of view if you spurn me or dismiss me. But… doesn’t it matter to you if I care? If I care about what you think about me? If I care about your well being? If I care about whether you are happy, or lonely, or are hurting? Doesn’t that matter to you, whether or not there is a God?
Loopy, your assumption about my questions are dead-on; they are honest ones from someone who genuinely wants to know a real opinion, not create my opinion on what people think (THAT is egotistical - and stupid).
Diogenes, thanks for your reply; instead from answering and trying to dodge the question simultaneously, you and others identify very deep personal feelings that give you personal satisfaction as well as guide your life. Thanks for that.
If punishment/reward (heaven/hell) is good enough for believers, why can’t it be good enough for nonbelievers? But no, when I consider my motivation for acting in a way that does not directly benefit myself, and I should note that I do this without considering motivations normally, I suppose that I do it in order to promote such actions. By acting in a positive manner towards others, I suppose I am attempting to teach a lesson. “Here, I just did something that benefitted you instead of me. I too derived enjoyment from it. Perhaps you could also derive enjoyment from benefitting someone else today?” It’s my own attempt to better the world.
1a. By scheme, I assume you mean “an orderly combination of related parts” (www.dictionary.com), rather than the more common definition of some kind of plan, as asking atheists about any kind of universal plan could be considered a complex question. Do my actions matter on the grand stage, then, where galaxies collide and giant stars explode? No. Do they matter on a global scale, where societies make war over scant resources? Probably not. Do they matter on a more local scale? Possibly. Do they matter to the scant percentage of people that know who I am? Likely. Do they matter to those I interact with on a daily basis? Almost certainly.
“Truly” meaningful? The common (though not universal) atheist viewpoint which I share is that “truth” on a metaphysical question such as “what does it all Mean, though, really?” is something defined individually. The meaning for my life comes from the people who want me around them, the joy I bring to my micro-community, and the pleasure I get in return for my actions. Others may choose to define their meaning however they see fit and I would have no reference point from which to argue against them.
The meaning of my existence? My existence means that I am between the points on the fourth dimension between sentience and death. To read any more into it on any sort of universal scale (what does it mean to the rest of the universe that I am a thinking, rational being?) seems presumptuous of me, so I will not attempt to do so.
3b. Does my life (or anyone else’s) matter? This definition of matter implies that it must matter to something or someone. So, again, I ask, what are the possible targets that judge how much I or anyone else matter? On the universal scale, I comprise little more than a few billions of atomic nuclei that was forged in the fires of some distant star (and the electrons they have picked up on their billion-mile journey). I have not matter enough to matter. If I were to pick up some 10^15 tons or so, that might change, but my wife informs me that this is unlikely even by my eating habits.
As for my value to the current human planetary society, this is something that can never be accurately calculated, as it is in constant flux. Either I’ll have made or assisted (even unintentionally) in something that changes the human society (for better or worse), or I won’t. To my knowledge, I don’t matter to the planet at large yet. I have taught more than a few people in my local community mathematical literacy, and some of them could potentially go on to do great things using that knowledge as a basis. While geniuses can create wild, terrific (or terrifying) things that change the course of society, no geniuses to my knowledge were raised in social vacuums. Thus, just about everyone matters.
First, most probably innate elements. I think for example that empathy is to some extent innate. Secondly, values that have been hammered in by my parents, my peers, the society I live and that I integrated. IOW, IMO, I would feel bad if I commited various “evil” acts because I’m both “programmed” to feel bad and brainwashed into feeling bad.
To, some extent, the intellectual judgment plays a part. But i’m firmly convinced the intellect share is of secondary importance when compared with feelings. It’s more useful to justify actions or feelings post facto
I don’t think so. Actually, I don’t think there’s a “grand scheme of things”.
Once again feelings. I can think it doesn’t really matter whether or not I die, but I pretty much don’t want to die. I long for various things. I fall in love. I feel desire. I feel happy when I achieve something. I can think all day long : it doesn’t really matter whether or not i succeed in such or such endeavor, but I will still feel like crap if I don’t and still be proud if I do. I assume I could somehow train myself not to care about anything, but this would a pretty damn difficult task, and completely pointless.
Not really. But I would want to add something. I’m not sure why the actual existence of a god or the prospect of an eternal life would make life more meaningful. What does it change, exactly? What does make an eternal life meaningful? I can’t think of any good answer to this question.
If I’m feeling particularly analytical, I’d cite game theory. Life isn’t a zero-sum game. The benefit of all benefits me by definition. Perhaps not as much as if I were a “defector”, but in an iterated context, there is a certain truth to the concept of karma. Yes, it does matter in the grand scheme of things (as far as I’m affected by them anyway); in some very real sense, we write the rules of the game as we trundle along.
On the other hand, if I’m not feeling analytical, there doesn’t really need to be reasons, right? It simply feels right.
I’ll ignore the last two questions, as my answers generally tend to reflect other posters’ opinions.
Imagine you are in a movie theater. Do you talk on your cell phone, talk loudly to your friends, put your feet on the seat in front? When you come in late, do you just take any seat without looking to see if you may be blocking someone’s view?
The Bible does not talk about any of those behaviors, but I imagine that you act in a very courteous manner. Why? Maybe because you want to please, or were raised well, or are socialized.
Atheists just apply those same “values” to everything. I imagine that most religious people act well for the same reason as atheists. It’s only when you start getting into things like whether you should or shouldn’t wear a hat, hajib, or curls; eat pork, cows, or shrimp; or celebrate holy days on Saturday or Sunday that you need to consult a book.
I’ll share Loopydudes comment that I don’t find the OP in the least bit offensive. Assuming that the OP is a religious person (and I’m not even sure he/she is), it seems like an honest question that I’d be interested in if I were a religious person. As for the questions:
Social compact. I don’t want to live in a society where I have to worry about everyone trying to kill me to steal my next meal for themselves. Read “The Evolution of Cooperation” sometime if you want to understand how cooperation can make sense from a purely biological standpoint. Right or wrong only makes sense to me in terms of what we, as members of the species H. sapines, are.
Life has no meaning other than itself. We only look for meaning because our brains have evolved to always expect cause and effect-- if something happens, there must be some force behind. If we are here, it must be for some reason. But there isn’t a reason. We just are.
I’m not sure how this is different from #2. You live and you die. The only “purpose” of life is to create more of itself. When it comes down to it, your body, your brain, your thoughts and your being are simply a means for DNA to replicate itself.
Do you think your existence has some special meaning ? Your just one little thing in a 6 billion crowd.