Morals are surely the product of human evolution. Societies that cooperate are far more successful than socieities in which everyone is killing or robbing each other. Right and wrong matters very much in terms of the survival of homo sapiens. Natural selection prefers survival.
2.-3. The meaning of life is life itself. As far as we can tell, life is damn rare in the universe, and therefore special. And yet where it exists it is absolutely persistent (in a general sense). Think of bacteria that live in undersea volcanic vents, the difficult in exterminating cockroaches, and so on. Life persists, because it must. Beyond that, it has no specific meaning as such.
As for me, my life is personally meaningful insofar as I feel satisfied and fulfilled by what I do, which is in no small part due to the ways I enhance the lives of the people around me. I suppose I’m talking about creating as hamonious an existence with life around me–both regarding human society and the natural world–as I can. I define this, as well as I am able, by what I have been taught and by what I experience.
I see this totally opposite. If there is a god, what we do does not matter except for our fate after death. If God’s plan rules all, if he can wipe us out at any time why bother?
But even if we arose randomly, we are here, and we bring purpose. It is our responsibility to make life better for all. If we fear asteroids, it is our responsibility to look out for them and figure out how to deal with one heading our way. That is so much more satisfying, to me, than to be beholden to a god who can allow 160,000 to be wiped out without batting an eye. If there is a god, and he wants to let them all die, then they will. If there is no god, we are responsible for putting in warning systems so that the disaster does not recur.
As for me, I am ethical because I was raised right, and possibly through my genes. I’m excessively ethical sometimes. My purpose is to make a difference for those here now and those who come after. My jobs have in some small way made it less likely for computers running the phone system and the web to fail. I’ve enabled some people smarter than me to do good work. I’ve helped set up conferences so that people can exchange ideas. Some grad students have used some of my papers in their research. It’s not much, but at least it has been in the right direction. Plus, I have the more direct pleasure of children and seeding my genes through the ages, and helping a set of kids from all over the world start to love to read. All this stuff makes me feel good, who needs a god?
I am not an atheist, but to be perfectly honest, I most often find myself on that side of this kind of debate…
Whilst I’m sure there are individuals who derive great acts of moral goodness motivated directly from their religion, I believe it to be the case that many more people just use their religion as a veneer to dress up the acts they were going to do regardless.
For me, the qhole thing is very easily brought to a conclusion with a question like this one:
There’s a person standing in front of you; it is within your power to kill them horribly and painfully; are the only reasons you can think of for not doing so religious ones? Really?
Moral frameworks can arise emergently out of social expediency; at the very simplest level, if I myself don’t want to be horribly slaughtered, it makes sense for me to contribute to an ethic that prohibits such things generally and in order to do that, I need to refrain from horribly slaughtering others. There’s more to it than that, of course.
We wake up in this prison (albeit a beautiful planet of a prison) and must choose an explanation for our situation. I believe that I am the most incredible thing in an incredible universe. I am a pattern of ever-changing atoms which somehow has the ability to think. Nothing like me existed for 13.7 billion years. I am borne of supernovae, I am Made of Stars. Every piece of sensory input I receive has an inexplicable quantum effect on the universe - I am the universe’s way of observing itself. I am vastly more wealthy than almost anyone who has ever lived, or is alive now. I need not fear the diseases, famines or wars which have killed and still kill billions of people, and refreshing potable water is, literally, on tap in the next room. Via this very device I am using to communicate with you, halfway around the planet whose most beautiful sights I could visit within hours, I have access to all the knowledge, art and thoughts of the finest minds and most creative geniuses in history.
My life is a wonder; I will live my life in wonder…
[ul][li]That the universe has always existed, even if “always” is only 13.7 billion years. [/li][li] That this region of the universe, having three dimensions of space and one of time, is such that hydrogen can be fused together to form helium and then oxygen, carbon and all kinds of other elements in enormous nuclear explosions called stars. [/li][li]That those elements can form orbiting spheres called planets, and comets covered in complex organic compounds such that, when the two collide, amino acids form and develop into proteinoids having a spherical structure in which further polymers form, yielding RNA and eventually the self-replicating molecule DNA. [/li][li]That the structures replicated thus have all manner of permutations, some of which last a very long time, thus becoming statistically more prevalent after a while. [/li][li]That groups of these long-lived permutations become isolated from the rest, and thus develop different permutations, and that this process, when continued for 5 billion years, yields extremely complex permutations such as sensory appartus which can send information to a central processing unit. [/li][li]And that, finally, such a permutation can grow a processing unit so incredibly complex that it can develop language and cognitive ability so advanced that it can ask itself the question “how did I get here?”[/ul][/li]
We are permutations who can, somehow, experience neurophysical pleasure and suffering. My pleasure is contingent on an absence of suffering in both myself and others, since I haven’t got a condition called psychopathy and thus can empathise with others. This is my moral code: to minimise neurophysical suffering. Other aspects of my life, such as love, travel, and a sense of “worth”, increase my neurophysical pleasure.
Nothing really matters to the universe. Things only matter to me.
I’ve asked this before, but wouldn’t it be fair to describe a person for whom fear of God is the only restraint preventing them from acts of harm against their fellow humans as a psychopath?
I have what I like to think is my own innate morality but is probably ingrained after years of absorbing ideas on what makes society work and what doesn’t. And I have to change these ideas when I visit a different society, because my ideas don’t work there anymore.
I believe in the rule which the Bible popularized as the “golden rule.” Do to others as you’d have others do to you." Does any part of that statement require the existence of God? Nope. So I don’t need any god for my morality.
As a fairly well-adjusted atheist, the simplified meaning of my life is to be as happy as possible while still following the golden rule. No gods needed there.
Are you implying that religion makes people’s lives truly meaningful? As I see it, religious people pursue the same things as the rest of us; the only difference being that they have religion to fall back on when their life has otherwise lost meaning.
We all have meaning to each other. We influence each other’s lives, hopefully in a positive way. We learn things and discover new information. By any other measure, no, our lives don’t matter.
Seems so to me, unless I have the wrong idea about what a psychopath is. That, to me, is a truly horrible thought–someone who is only restrained by that fear, whatever god inspires it. I am not an atheist, but my religion is not the only reason I live by a certain moral code. My moral code is in place beside my religion, coexisting with it. I believe that if one’s religion is the only thing holding one back from being a horrible person, then that religion has less meaning than otherwise.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. It’s difficult for me to express it clearly.
What do you mean by this? (I am not trying to start a fight. Please believe me.) Are you saying that Christianity’s not doing a good job of keeping these people from doing wrong? If they professed Christianity at the time they committed their crimes, then I agree with that, but then I wouldn’t consider them good Christians. (obviously) What if they converted while in prison?
My “morality” if you want to call is that, is driven by a sense of community and responsibility towards my fellow human beings. I think it’s my duty as a member of a society to do what I can to leave the world a better place than when I found it. I believe in treating other people the way I would like them to treat me, often even when they treat me badly, because that’s the only way cycles of violence and hate are broken. The law or the threat of jail doesn’t impact my behaviour too much, except that there are things I don’t agree with should be illegal, but it has nothing to do with morality per se.
I don’t think I quantify things in terms of right or wrong. I’m a bit more Libertarian in that sense, in that I think as long as you aren’t hurting your fellow human beings (physically, mentally, loss of property etc), whatever you want to do is A-Ok.
Well I find the most meaning, myself, in doing things to take care of/please other people. I’d like the point of my life to ultimately help to make others’ lives more comfortable or enjoyable. I love to work, I love to create things, to feel I am doing something productive and of benefit to others. I’m not perfect, no body is, and I have my moments I’m not as proud of, but overall I do my best. I constantly strive to push my limits further and try to better myself in whatever ways I can.
That’s too subjective to answer. The value of a life is ultimately up to the person living it. Some people throw away or squander their lives with poor choices or dumb mistakes, some people devote them to things important to them and treasure every moment they are here. It’s not my place to judge other people’s choices in that way. I personally find meaning through my various creative endeavours, caring for those around me, including a troupe of small animals, and doing my part to make the world a better place, but that’s my own personal thing and everyone finds meaning in different ways.
Does my life really “matter”? Who knows? I don’t think that’s important.
First, it’s atheists. Second, my morals are based on objective principles. If you do something that is morally offensive you will have to deal with the consequences-whether they be social or legal.
So yes, wrong and right matter in the scheme of things. Atheists don’t have a superbeing to appeal to on our death beds that make all of our past transgressions vaporize. We live in the here and now.
A lot of things make my life meaningful, my wife and future family, my hobbies, my passions, etc, etc.
The meaning of my existence is to exist. I choose my own meaning as do you. In the grand scheme of things whether you believe in God or not, you have to find your own meaning. At best theists can appeal to a ‘mystery meaning’, but I don’t think that helps the situation.
Does my life matter? To me it most certianly does, and also to my friends and family, just as their life matters to me.
I have 2 things I’d like to say in response to this.
First of all, your not believing in God does not make him go away. If God exists, you have no control on whether he punishes you, rewards you, or does nothing to you for all eternity, so you really have no idea what will happen to you after you pass on. :dubious:
Secondly, it irks me when I see or hear of people, usually atheists, talking about how they feel like they’re “set free” or “really living”, either implying or stating outright that theists are slaves to God because of their belief and that they consider them “not really living life to its fullest” because they might be worried about what God would think. That’s a bunch of crap.
I read an exerpt from an Ayn Rand tome that included such a conversation, and it put me off on her even more than I already was. I’m sorry, but to me, that’s no different from fundamentalists that take a “holier than thou” attitude with people different from they. Beliving that God can and/or does exist does not preclude one from living one’s own life. Thinking that ‘God is watching us all the time’ shouldn’t prevent people from doing what they wish. Religion and theology do not necessarily a person with good morals make, just as the absence of religion and/or belief in God do not necessarily make a person with bad morals. I don’t think people should refrain from doing the wrong thing because they’re afraid God will judge them, they shouldn’t do it because we on earth think it is - and leave God’s judgment to him.
I think atheists should just answer the questions and show how atheists have the answers to these important questions rather than clog up this thread with attacks on Christianity…
There’s also the stigma attached to being a convicted criminal. I already have the stigma of being someone hospitalized with having bipolar disorder. Also, caring for others can feel good or “right”, due to my upbringing and/or instincts.
Empathy, laziness, fear of the consequences. I don’t necessarily follow every law. (particularly copyright… I can kind of justify that because I think that copyright durations should be short and not continuously extended, or because I value convience and cost)
Well if right and wrong has a utilitarian basis, then if you do more wrong things then less people are happy and more are unhappy. That’s all.
Ideally it would be career and romance though I’ve never been on a date or had a full-time or long-term job. At the moment my life’s purpose is to stay alive for the time being because my insurance policy doesn’t cover suicide for the first 12 months, and to entertain myself and do what others tell me to do sometimes like think about doing something with my life.
Well as long as I choose to be alive, I want my life to be as good as possible (while thinking about the wellbeing of others) - and that involves having a certain sense of self-importance. My self-worth also comes from my intelligence, which has been praised a lot in the past, and my Mum who says “you know we love you, don’t you?”
I’m just a part of the universe and I emerged from it by physical processes. I think the universe and its workings just exist - I don’t think there was purpose or plan for it all.
As long as we can feel pleasure and pain then things matter.
I want to flip this around. I don’t understand how the concept of God answers any of these questions. It’s precisely the same fallacy people make when they say there must have been a God to create the universe. It doesn’t solve the problem. What, then created God?
It just shoves off the question and begs a second.
So you get your morality from God - well where does God get his morality? Is it just arbitrary? Why is morality created by God more legitimate than morality created by us? Because it’s a God that’s creating it?
and 3. Where does God get his meaning? Is meaning that a God creates more legitimate than meaning that we create? Why?
Precisely the same existential questions still exist, God or no God. If you’re not confronting them, then “God” must confront them. Theists who think that God answers all these questions somehow strike me as good soldiers who don’t question their orders but can at least take comfort in having no responsibility for the big picture.
BTW, tlk1 claims that his questions
“are honest ones from someone who genuinely wants to know a real opinion, not create my opinion on what people think”
And I think that theme could have been encouraged rather than having atheists attack Christianity at every opportunity.
Ok, this is how a Christian MIGHT answer the questions:
“What drives your morals”
Obeying God because I love him.
“What prevents you from doing whatever it takes to get what you want when you want it other than the long arm of the law?”
That would probably be against God’s morality and so against mine.
“Does right or wrong REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things?”
It matters to God, and to your eternal destination.
This is how a Christian MIGHT answer the questions:
“What makes your life truly meaningful?”
I’ve got a special relationship with the Creator and am going to heaven.
“Where do you derive your self worth?”
God loves me. I’m not equal with God though.
“What is the meaning of your existence?”
God made me to help look after his creation which shows his glory, and so that I would appreciate/worship him.
“Does your life - or anyones - really matter on this rock?”
Yeah we’ll all going to be living forever.
So I think your statement about “I don’t understand how the concept of God answers any of these questions [the original post’s questions]” is wrong. And even atheists can still answer most of the questions.
I think you’re falling into a trap (see my above post). The underlying assumption of the question is that religion somehow answers these questions. NOBODY has the “answer” to these questions - they’re questions you struggle with. Theists who think that God has the solution are just refusing to confront them directly.
IANAA, but one of my best friends is. I think I know her well enough to speak for her in this case:
A belief in right and wrong. Atheists aren’t people who believe in nothing, they’re people who don’t believe in God. My friend absoulutely doesn’t believe in God, but she believes there’s a certain correct way for people to treat one another. The only difference between her and religious folk on this point is they think an entity (God) created that moral code, and she thinks it simply exists.
For my friend, it’s helping others. She does more volunteer work than anyone I know, other than my mother. (Who’s an agnostic, by the way.) Her primary goal in life seems to be to make a difference in the lives of less fortunate people.
One can believe that life has inherent value without believing in God or an afterlife. You can believe that something has value without believing a conscious entity acted to give it value. The fact that something only exists temporarily doesn’t make it less valuable.
I think this thread is about existentialism. It is a different issue whether or not religion is better able to answer those questions. Though I guess atheists giving bad answers while not subjecting Christians to the same kind of awkwardness just makes atheists look bad. But on the other hand, maybe atheists can explain their lack of some answers in a somewhat positive way - so that potential atheists feel comforted about their flirtations with atheism.
Well I think atheists who post in the thread could at least try to answer the questions - and many did. If people struggle with the questions they could at least explain their difficulties.
I thought my example Christian replies were direct enough. If the example Christian can’t justify that his beliefs are correct, he can always say that he has faith.
