I’m interested in writing a genderswap story where Robbie, Chip and Ernie of the sixties sitcom “My Three Sons” get transformed into girls, probably just before the family moves to California from Bryant Park - "Wow, California! Sun, sand, bikini girls - wait, we’re not going to wear bikinis!
When i raised the issue elsewhere, I got a lecture about how it’s “transphobic” for them to be girls after their transformation just because they now have vaginas.
“My Three Sons” is set in the sixties and forcing this modern attitude/belief in the setting would be ahistorical, anachronistic and take away the main driving force for the plot.
I’m not sure why you feel it would be anachronistic.
It’s not like ‘having a gender identity’ is a new thing.
If anything, I’d expect guys from the 60s to be more insistent of their masculinity in this situation than many more modern men might.
I also can’t think of a possible genderswap storyline that works better if their mind is changed with their body (a couple that work equally well, either way, but none that work better), so…
I know nothing of the characters you’re writing about or the “genderswap” genre, but if you’re not going to write these characters as these characters, what’s the point?
If you’re going to write about changing genders, there no point in having the character accept it immediately. "I woke up to discover I had changed into a girl. “Cool,’ I said and went off to the prom with Billy.” End of story.
This is nothing against trans people. They want to change genders. But many, if not most people would have trouble adjusting to the changes.
I have never heard of “genderswap stories,” but from the moniker I can well imagine what they involve. The criticism you heard sounds like a criticism of the genre itself. If you’re going to write in the genre, then of course, have them be girls, since that’s what it would mean for them to be “genderswapped.” If you think the criticism has merit, then don’t write genderswap.
On second thought it depends–is the genre characterized by a swapping of gender taking place during the story, or instead is it characterized by the presence of characters who are and always have been of the gender opposite the character they are based on?
It can be done that way for humor. I recall a character whose parent is a “mad scientist” type whose experiments tend to get out of hand; his/her reaction to waking up as a girl was essentially “What? Again? Oh, well.”
If you want to write it then write it, someone, somewhere is always going to have a problem and unless you’re being deliberately offensive then I’m not sure why it should stop you.
I’m also not sure why depicting a magical sex-change is transphobic, what exactly is the objection? And what exactly is ahistorical about your idea?
Personally I like the concept of physical transformation, of which gender-changes are a subgenre, but it is so rarely done well, good luck with your writing.
Having three teenager boys in the early 1960s change at the same time gives you an opportunity to portray three different reactions to it. One could embrace it, one could struggle but eventually accept it, and a third could never stop fighting it. (Or however you like)
You can head off accusations that you the writer are transphobic by presenting all three and judging the characters’ thoughts and actions and/or invite the reader to do the same.
This, pretty much. There’s always someone who’ll be offended, both because of the sheer number & variety of things people find offensive and the fact that some people make a point of being offended.
I’m the same; I’ve liked transformation in fiction as long as I can recall. Gender bending, lycanthropy, comic book style “mutation”, cyborgization…
Do you have any particular stories you’d recommend? You certainly come across as well-read.
Speaking of cyborgisation although not nearly as well done as the original (and the sequel which isn’t nearly as bad as people say it is) the new Robocop had quite a few interesting aspects which could be explored in follow-ups, mainly along the lines of free-will or lack thereof as a result of the main characters new form.
I don’t have Der Trihs’ interest in this subject matter, but you might check out the webcomic Misfile, if you’re not already familiar with it. In addition to being generally entertaining, it features a surprisingly deep look into two transformations–a gender swap and a relatively short, but significant, de-aging. (Also street racing and slacker angels, among other things.)
Thanks, I do actually recall reading that a few years ago but fell out of the story for some reason, time to start digging into the archives to catch up!
As a crossdresser, I can agree that virtually everything you put out will upset someone. In the transgendered community you’ll find lots of arguments over terminology and what is offensive or not. I’ve heard arguments that everything from drag to sex change surgery is transphobic or sexist. Of course the irony is genderswap fiction or forced feminization tales are cited by TGs as their initial outlet to finding out they weren’t weird, and TGs form much if not most of their audience. Just trust me, if you don’t mock the characters or portray violence against them as OK the vast majority of TGs won’t have a problem.
In regards to the story, I’d really like to see it. Especially if you follow garygnu’s idea of contrasting their reactions. I’m even thinking of my own ideas for stories (since gender issues and classic sitcoms are two interests of mine.)
Just do realize that the more action-y and supernatural aspects kinda disappear after a while. I’m sure it will come back in the finale, but it’s pretty much absent at this point.
The author is more interested in the genderswap features and the relationship between Ash and Emily. A whole plotline about heaven falling apart seems to have been abandoned.
And I will say the author does occasionally indulge in some stuff I think the OP should avoid. He has Ash (the genderswapped dude) sometimes be the only sane woman, cutting through the bullshit. And he sometimes engages in some stereotypes completely at face value. He seems to be able to pull it off without the audience caring, but I’d think someone just beginning would want to be careful.
I say you’re much better off having the transformed boys learn that their stereotypes are wrong, especially due to the temporal setting. Stick with deconstruction when stereotypes come up. Since you sound like you are going a comedic direction, avoid having the comedy be “ha, ha, women are strange, aren’t they?” Have it instead be “ha, ha, men think some stupid things about women, don’t they?”
As for whether they actually become women–that just depends on the type of transformation. But it sounds like you aren’t having them suddenly become women. They think like guys at first, wanting to see the bikinis on the beach, but then get horrified by the idea that they will have to be the ones in the bikinis.
I’d only suggest making it a bit more show than tell with that. If you go with the different attitudes, you could have one person who just is still thinking like he’s not been transformed, another one freaking out that they would be exposing so much of themselves, and a third one that secretly thinks it would be enjoyable, but is afraid to say anything. something like this:
Dude1: Dude, theirs a beach here. Girls in bikinis. Come one.
(Dude3 has a surprised but happy look on his face)
Dude2: We are NOT wearing bikinis.
Dude1: Huh? oh, yeah. We’re the girls. I guess you’re right.
Dude2: Though so.
Dude3 (looks dejected) Yeah, that would be stupid…
I gotta disagree with you there BigT. Fiction of any sort is hard to write, genre ficition even harder. Why force “life lessons” into genderswap fiction when no other form of fiction needs to conform to these rules? As long as you don’t try to directly insult the characters as stupid or immoral, I think few TGs will care–like any other group, “it’s entertaining” is the main thing they look for.
Author commentary on the start of the arc indicated that it would be a slow, long-term arc. Not all that much has been revealed yet, and it’s not really the point of the strip. As you say, I expect it will play a bigger role in the finale.
Eh, just as often, Ash balks at some perfectly reasonable suggestion from Emily. In real life, friends often take turns being the sane one. Also, Ash’s “cutting through bullshit” approach is him acting in accord with his own stereotypical view of male behavior, and has been known to lead to him slipping on cow patties.
It’s a tricky distinction, but I think that most often, when stereotypes come into play, it’s the characters who take them at face value, rather than the author–especially Ash. Part of it is the character being a somewhat socially isolated teenager, and part, I think, is meant as Ash lashing out at his situation. When his frustration at the misfile gets the better of him, he sets up stereotypes as strawmen to beat on.
I think both are intended as Ash’s coping mechanisms, at least in part.
(Besides, it’s all worth it for the shoulder angel/devil strips. For some reason, those always tickle me. :D)
Well, you could ask actual transgender and transsexual people what they think. While many cisgender people speak well on behalf of my people, some take the transphobic word and like to beat others over the head with it.
Prima facie it doesn’t sound transphobic to me. Here’s my questions:
Do they still have male gender brains? If so, the transformation is going to be terrible for them. They are going to suffer from serious gender dysphoria and likely try to hide themselves as much as possible, seek a cure or fix, and may even resort to self-mutilation and suicide attempts. This is really not much different than transgender folks experience before we transition.
How long has it been since they changed? Their brains, used to testosterone raging through them, are suddenly going to have to deal with estrogen and progesterone raging through them. The difference cannot be completely fully appreciated without experiencing it firsthand, but it can be described and discussed.
Is Ernie past puberty? If not, they now has the miracle of staining their first white dress with blood, cramps, etc.
Unless their brains changed with the transition, the story is not likely to be a fun one where all the boys learn about the fun of being girls, meeting boys, and having dream weddings. It’s likely to be one where all of them become introverted, reclusive, dark and moody, prone to flashes of rage and violence, addicted to alcohol and drugs, engaging in risk-taking behaviors, start harming themselves, run away from home, and even end their lives. All interwoven with enormous amounts of angst, depression, and fear. Essentially, an N. Night Shyamalan version of My Three Sons.
Alternatively, they could find a sympathetic doctor who will at least give them estrogen blockers until they can get adjusted over a year or two. Or try to transition them back to being men as best as possible (in the 1960’s, I can tell you exactly what that would be - a mastectomy, hysterectomy, and testosterone injections - no viable phalloplasties except in rare cases for some time).
We actually know what our gender is, we want to change our gender presentation.
As a guy who grew up in the 60’s and identified very strongly with the youngest of the three (because I looked a lot like him and had the same glasses and wardrobe), I find this story concept more than a little disturbing, particularly after reading Una’s post…
Not to sidetrack this thread, but are they any good gender swap NOVELs out there? This is the first I’ve heard of this genre, and it sounds interesting. All of the listings I found on Amazon seem to be short story erotica and the descriptions make them sound more prurient than interesting. (Not that I’m against that, I just don’t want it to be the whole focus of the story.)
I’m thinking along the lines of Freaky Friday or The Change Up, but with gender switches. I know both of these are comedies. I’d like drama recommendations too, but I can’t remember a body switch story that isn’t a comedy.
J.
