I’m from the Old World not the New, and my interest in sports is all but zero; however, something was brought to mind for me by current exchanges in MPSIMS, about Abner Doubleday and baseball. Things may be additionally clouded for me, by Harry Turtledove’s alternative-history series where the Confederacy wins the Civil War in 1862, and successfully secedes. Please could folk enlighten me, as to the real world: does baseball thrive and have a big following in the south-eastern USA – the area of the former Confederate States; or – long memories and all that – is it disliked there (a “Yankee” sport etc. etc.), thus “happening” there little or not at all?
(In Turtledove’s “Southern Victory” universe, baseball is always a rather weird “niche” sport confined strictly to New England – everywhere else in the USA and CSA, American football reigns sole and supreme; with detail differences in rules, between the two nations.)
There is a Major League team in Atlanta and two in Texas both of which were Confederate state. There are minor league teams throughout the South. It is also quite popular at colleges there. They get a longer season than norther states because spring comes earlier.
Little League is divided into regions. There is a Southeast which consists of some of the Confederate states plus West Virginia. The Southwest [sic] region has Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas and some other states that had not joined the US by the time of the Civil War.
So yes Baseball is quite popular in the South. I also seem to recall stories of baseball being played in prisoner of war camps during the Civil War.
Yes, baseball is a big deal in the Southern United States. Not as big as football at the collegiate and professional ranks, but still big at lower levels. Minor league baseball’s history in the Southern U.S. (esp. if counting the Confederate state Texas as Southern) is long and distinguished. Same with youth baseball (Little League, et.al.).
So far as I know, there’s never, ever been a stigma with baseball being a “Yankee” sport. In comparison, consider that Japanese sportsmen did not drop baseball *circa *the late 1940s despite it being one of the most popular sports of their fiercest WWII adversary.
Today there’s no regional stigma associated with baseball. Baseball began as a variation of rounders in Northeastern cities in the 19th century. But its popularity spread fast after the Civil War, with barnstorming teams and such. By the early 20th century, baseball was being played all over the country.
Baseball started as an urban game, but soon enough, many of the best players were coming from rural areas.
The first major league team in the Deep South didn’t happen until the 1960s, but baseball had been played at lower levels all over the south, and many of the players for the largely northeastern major league teams were southerners.
But it’s a plausible alternative history that you describe. If the Confederacy had won the war, maybe the ongoing tensions and rivalries would have prevented the cultural and commercial traffic that allowed baseball to become popular nationwide.
My own observation is that, yes, in the South, football is a bigger deal than baseball – but, fundamentally, that’s been true in most of the U.S. for decades.
Major League Baseball didn’t have a team in the “old South” until the 1960s – the Houston Colt 45s, now known as the Astros, were formed in 1962, and the Braves moved to Atlanta from Milwaukee in 1966. But, to be fair, until the 1950s, Major League Baseball was really a regional league; it had teams no further west, nor further south, than St. Louis. But, there were (and still are) a number of minor leagues in the South, as well.
Also, many of the most successful college baseball teams are located in the South, including LSU, Texas, Virginia, and Miami.
So, is football bigger than baseball in the South? Yeah, I’d definitely say so. Does baseball have no presence or fan base in the South? I don’t think that that’s the case.
There are also two teams in Florida, the Tampa Bay Rays and the Miami Marlins. Neither is wildly popular, which is kind of a puzzle considering the potential fanbase among Latin Americans in the state.
Lousiana State University is one of the most popular college teams.
My late father (born in 1925 in Georgia) was a lifelong baseball fan. Even as a boy, he could follow MLB by reading newspaper reports & box scores. He could sometimes even listen to St. Louis Cardinal games on the radio.
The Atlanta Crackers were a very popular minor league team before the Braves moved to Atlanta.
And the Deep South wasn’t unique in the lack of MLB teams at that time. In 1960, there were 16 major league teams, very heavily concentrated in the northeast and midwest. Only 4 MLB teams were west of the Mississippi - St Louis (just barely), Kansas City (MO - still can be considered midwest), San Francisco and Los Angeles. The Giants and Dodgers were franchises that had moved to the west coast from New York only a couple years earlier.
Baseball started in New York City and environs but was already unquestionably an America-wide obsession by the late 19th century. The first true professional baseball team was in Cincinnati, which is on the cusp of North and South.
Major League baseball, specifically, did not expand into the former Confederacy until 1962 (Houston) and shortly after Atlanta (1966) Dallas (1972) and Florida much later on. It should be borne in mind though that the early geographical restriction on Major League ball had nothing to do with popularity; it had everything to do with transportation. Baseball is played every day, and prior to reliable and affordable commercial air travel, it simply was not possible for a baseball league to practically span the whole continent. California, a hotbed of baseball, did not get a major league team until 1958 despite the fact that Los Angeles had been America’s second greatest city for quite some time at that point - you just could not possibly have taken a train that far and not blown the schedule to pieces. Until the 1950s, there was no major league baseball south of Washington DC or west of St. Louis because there just couldn’t be. Negro League ranged a bit further afield, but not by much; they certainly didn’t go all the way to California.
Of course you may ask why baseball went to California before it did the South, since California is further. That’s just where the biggest money was. The U.S. South didn’t start growing huge cities in earnest until well after World War II.
I think RickJay has it best - the major leagues started out in areas where there were huge populations to fill stadiums within reasonable travel distance in the days of rail travel. It expanded further once air travel became a reasonable way to get from place to place. After all, the MLB schedule is 160 games or so, and even playing a decent number of double headers that’s a lot of game time, not leaving as much time for travel. A schedule where it took more than a day to get between cities was probably not feasible.
I also suspect by the time interest was peaking after WWI, radio was widespread enough that people in the south could follow northern games, so no competing southern league would be as popular?
Plus, I wonder how relevant weather was? It would be pretty hot sitting out in the sun in summer in the Good Old Days, worse in the south. Many teams now feature indoor venues with air conditioning.
I can’t think of any sport that has much of a regional difference in the USA. Perhaps ice hockey, but teams have been successful in the south as well.
I’d say the main difference in the South is that there are so many transplants that come from colder weather climates and often keep their old team loyalties. I’d say that goes double for the two Florida teams.
While it’s true many people move to places like NYC and Chicago, the demographics are a bit different since you’re often dealing with recent college graduates moving to the big city. Even for me, lifelong baseball fan, my interest definitely waned in my early 20s as I was more interested in nightlife and meeting other singles than I was in who’s pitching today.
Agreed that baseball is popular in the South, but depending on how you define South there’s only one MLB team, the Atlanta Braves. I’m still not convinced the Rays and Marlins have actual fans and not just transplants that only go to the game when the team they’re a fan of because of where they used to live are in town. (Looking at you, people in the stands when the Yankees play the Rays).
At least I think of the Braves as the only Southern team. And whenever they’re in the playoffs it makes me think of my late grandfather yelling at the TV.
Google textile league baseball. Does the name “Shoeless Joe Jackson” mean anything to you? That’s where he came from. (The first mill he worked at–when he was 6 years old–was less than 10 miles from me.)
In the 1920s there were Negro league teams (teams made up mostly of African Americans, who could not play in Major League Baseball) in the South, including Bimingham, Memphis, and Nashville:
In spite of their attendance and success on the field (or the lack of it), the Marlins and the Rays do qualify for this thread. They do play in the major leagues and Florida was a part of the Confederacy. Also, before the dawn of the jet age, almost every one of the MLB teams held spring training in Florida.