I’m not sure what to call adjective that describe abstract qualities such as ‘expensive’ or ‘elegant’ (coordinate adjectives?). Are there rules of their particular order in English?
If I say/write “the expensive elegant dress” or the “elegant expensive dress”(I prefer the former order but don’t know if it conforms to a rule or it’'s simply a preference) what rules govern the order? I realise I’m placing a different emphasis on certain qualities. Nonetheless is there a standard order for these particualr ajjectives like the one for the order of adjectives in general?
Here is an article about it: Order force: the old grammar rule we all obey without realising.
The rule is that multiple adjectives are always ranked accordingly: opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose. Unlike many laws of grammar or syntax, this one is virtually inviolable, even in informal speech. You simply can’t say My Greek Fat Big Wedding, or leather walking brown boots. And yet until last week, I had no idea such a rule existed.
In this case my ignorance does not constitute a professional emergency, since I doubt I’ve ever put adjectives in the wrong order. If you’re a native speaker, the hierarchy is ingrained in you. Only people trying to learn English actually need to know the rule.
Thanks don_t_ask. I’m aware of the general order. I’m specifically interested in the qualities that have nothing to do with quantity, size, objective physical quality, shape, age, color or origin, material, type or purpose. I’m specifically interested only in those adjectival qualities that refer to opinion such as “expensive” or 'elegant". They are much more abstract and subjective.
I think what you are asking is if there is a particular order to be used when two or more “opinion” adjectives are used about the same noun. I don’t think there is a general order when two adjectives are the same type - I think they are most commonly joined by “and” but the order doesn’t matter except when it’s a set phrase. For example, it would be very strange to hear someone refer to a “crazy and wild party” or a “white and black striped couch”
Thanks Doreen. That’s precisely what I’m asking about. I’m a native speaker so I do have a feeling for the right order but it would be nice to know whether there is any general rule for the order of ‘opinion’ adjectives.
This is almost scary. I was considering starting an almost identical thread on this topic about the same time you posted this.
Along the lines of asking if anyone was ever actually taught this or just picked it up by osmosis or something. And if there are any exceptions.
If it’s two opinions, then the first is the one that seems to me emphasised. So the cost of an expensive [but] elegant dress weighs more heavily than the charm of an elegant [but - or could be and] dress.
I think we’re down to style and euphony here, rather than a strict rule.
I’d say it was the reverse, the first is seen as qualifying the second.
So an expensive elegant dress is primarily an elegant dress, but it is in the subclass of expensive ones, not, say, reasonably-priced ones.
Whereas an elegant expensive dress is primarily an expensive dress, and you’re delineating it as not a tacky one.
Isn’t your example an exception to the rule? “Big” measures size, while “Fat” seems to measure opinion, no?
By placing “fat” in that position, we are showing that it is an opinion. This is probably a reason for the hierarchy of adjectives. Consider in Spanish “Hombre grande” and compare it to Grand hombre.
I think you’re going to have to fall back on the bish-bash-bosh pattern, also cited in @don_t_ask 's article. The first vowel that differentiates “expensive” vs “elegant” is “i” vs “a” hence “expensive” precedes “elegant”.
The order rules aren’t absolute: The opposite of a “pretty little thing” is a “big ugly thing”.
OK but that supports what I’m saying. “Fat” is judgmental (an opinion) but to call a wedding “big” is a measure of its size.
I’m pretty sure that this is a rule that is picked up by osmosis and that neither native speakers nor even people who study English as a foreign language are ever taught this.
This is probably related to Benjamin Lee Whorf’s cryptotype concept.
It seems to me that either both “big” and “fat” refer to size ( although possibly different aspects of size) or they both refer to opinion ( you and I might not agree on the the boundary between “big” and “not big” or "fat and “not fat” )
I think “big” is a little more objective (certainly less judgmental) than “fat.” If you tell me you had a big wedding, that means something of a factual nature whereas if you tell me you think I’m “fat” I might well respond “No, I’m quite slender.”
“Big” might be less judgmental than “fat”, but I’m not at all sure that it’s more objective. If I tell you I had a big wedding, how many guests do you imagine? To me, anything fewer than 200 guests is not a big wedding, but I’ve seen people describe weddings with 50 guests as “big”.
It seems to me that “big fat” is one of those set phrases like “wild and crazy” or “black and white” (like @doreen mentioned). The phrase “big fat” gets used a lot, and not always in reference to physical size:
That’s a big fat lie!
You’re a big fat idiot! Which you can say even to a skinny person.
No one would ever talk about a fat big lie, or call someone a fat big idiot. Just like no one would ever talk about a white and black movie, even though there’s no logical reason not to. It’s a standard phrasing, and it sounds weird if we deviate from it.
I am tempted to opine that “big fat” is, in fact, a single adjective whose meaning is somewhat different than the meanings of its two component parts.
I think “big fat” falls into the “bish-bash-bosh” pattern.
Excelllent point MrDibble. Thank you.